Plaaf fighter cocpits
- Thread starter MIGleader
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The Su-27 has a track mode but it does not appear to be a track while scan mode. Which means that while the radar is tracking those 10 targets, you won't be seeing anything else as the radar isn't doing anything else at the same time like scanning the general environment. The MKK has a track while scan mode, which means if you are tracking those 10 targets, you are still scanning simultaneously and displaying other targets as the scan updates their positions regularly. However, only those that are tracked are showing heading and velocity information at the same time.
The Russians also have something called a Velocity Search mode. I'm not sure but I heard something similar is also recently implemented on the APG-68 radar on the F-16 on the latest versions.
What a VS mode does is track a target and displays only its velocity information. This enables the radar to increase the number of targets being tracked and increase the tracking ranges, because the overhead for tracking is reduced.
Have you heard about the Zhuk-ME or MS radars claiming they can track 20 targets? Yet their information also says their Track-While-Scan is only 10 targets? Confused? That's because those 20 targets are being tracked with VS, while TWS only does 10.
As if all these matters a lot. The most commonly used modes tend to be RWS or Range While Search, and STT or Single Target Tracking mode. You use multiple targeting TWS if you are engaging targets simultaneously with ARH missiles but these things sound only cool in paper. STT is the old trusted standby all pilots use because of its range, aperture (it gives better elevation and azimuth in the radar compared to TWS), speed of locking, and resistance to ECM. You can use STT to fire both ARH and SARH missiles.
As for the N001 being terrible, everyone agrees it is a dinosaur. And yet I would not underestimate what even the original could do. The Su-30Ks used the Indian Air Force also use the N001E (export N001) like those of the PLAAF Su-27SKs, and they made a great showing in the COPE exercises.
The Russians also have something called a Velocity Search mode. I'm not sure but I heard something similar is also recently implemented on the APG-68 radar on the F-16 on the latest versions.
What a VS mode does is track a target and displays only its velocity information. This enables the radar to increase the number of targets being tracked and increase the tracking ranges, because the overhead for tracking is reduced.
Have you heard about the Zhuk-ME or MS radars claiming they can track 20 targets? Yet their information also says their Track-While-Scan is only 10 targets? Confused? That's because those 20 targets are being tracked with VS, while TWS only does 10.
As if all these matters a lot. The most commonly used modes tend to be RWS or Range While Search, and STT or Single Target Tracking mode. You use multiple targeting TWS if you are engaging targets simultaneously with ARH missiles but these things sound only cool in paper. STT is the old trusted standby all pilots use because of its range, aperture (it gives better elevation and azimuth in the radar compared to TWS), speed of locking, and resistance to ECM. You can use STT to fire both ARH and SARH missiles.
As for the N001 being terrible, everyone agrees it is a dinosaur. And yet I would not underestimate what even the original could do. The Su-30Ks used the Indian Air Force also use the N001E (export N001) like those of the PLAAF Su-27SKs, and they made a great showing in the COPE exercises.
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
thank you crobato. i think the N001E actually works very well wneh there are mountains and onther objects for its waves to reflect off of. in those case, the su-30 can fully utilize its radar and manuverbility. so, what kind of advanced radar does china have planned for future j-10s and j-11bs? is it 1473?
Actually radar works worst when there is mountains and other ground features to reflect radar off. It's called ground clatter. Ground clatter is one of the main problems in developing look down modes for radar.
KLJ-3 might be a radar specifically designed to fit the J-10. As such, it probably won't fit on a J-11. Different designations are assigned for the radars specifically designed to fit each and every aircraft.
The least common denominator for the radar on the J-10 should at least be a mechanical slotted planar array. The current generation of mechanically scanning radars used around the world belongs to this design. It gives better aperture (azimuth and elevation degrees) and less sidelob interference than Cassegrain and Twist Cassegrain designs like those used by the Russians such as on the N010 and N001 radars on the MiG-29 and Su-27 respectively. Actually slotted planars give better aperture than even electronically scanning designs whose signal strength tends to weaken when they scan along the side, and generally face a lot of heat problems. Also slotted planars comes off with the best price performance ratio.
You can already see that the radars used on the J-8II, JH-7A and even the J-7G uses a slotted planar. The Su-27SK, upgraded J-11As and Su-30MKK still uses a Twist Cassegrain buoyed up with more modern electronics, but even with better electronics, you can't get around your mechanical limitations. If you see the upgraded Su-27SKM, it still has the Twist Cassegrain, which is shaped kind of like a large tube. No wonder China didn't accept the Su-27SKM and stopped the Su-30MK2. The MK3 is supposed to have the Zhuk MSE which uses a slotted planar.
As far as we know, the Russian Zhemchug proposed for the J-10 is a slotted planar and so is the Israeli ELTA M 2032. The Lavi's ELTA M 2035 is also a slotted planar.
In my opinion, the J-11B will also be a slotted planar, either by NRIET (No. 14) or by LETRI (No. 607), though I view LETRI to be more of a runnerup.
However, one can't rule out a passive phase array, given China's mastery of this technology. My opinion is that the radar on the J-10 and J-11B is at least a slotted planar made by NRIET, which I think is the leading candidate to win the radar contract for the J-11B, but a passive phase array is within the realm of possibility.
I think with a slotted planar, the J-11B should have a performance comparable to the Su-30MK3 and its Zhuk MSE, and I think that is one of the reasons why the MK3 project---and all MKK related projects---was placed into hiatus. To do better than the J-11B, Russia needs to offer a plane with a passive phase array like the Su-35. But for how long again, till China masters putting phase arrays on fighter aircraft which is becoming a near term possibility.
My idea of proposed Su-35 for China would include N001VEP enhanced with Pero Phase Array, aka the radar code name is "Panda".
KLJ-3 might be a radar specifically designed to fit the J-10. As such, it probably won't fit on a J-11. Different designations are assigned for the radars specifically designed to fit each and every aircraft.
The least common denominator for the radar on the J-10 should at least be a mechanical slotted planar array. The current generation of mechanically scanning radars used around the world belongs to this design. It gives better aperture (azimuth and elevation degrees) and less sidelob interference than Cassegrain and Twist Cassegrain designs like those used by the Russians such as on the N010 and N001 radars on the MiG-29 and Su-27 respectively. Actually slotted planars give better aperture than even electronically scanning designs whose signal strength tends to weaken when they scan along the side, and generally face a lot of heat problems. Also slotted planars comes off with the best price performance ratio.
You can already see that the radars used on the J-8II, JH-7A and even the J-7G uses a slotted planar. The Su-27SK, upgraded J-11As and Su-30MKK still uses a Twist Cassegrain buoyed up with more modern electronics, but even with better electronics, you can't get around your mechanical limitations. If you see the upgraded Su-27SKM, it still has the Twist Cassegrain, which is shaped kind of like a large tube. No wonder China didn't accept the Su-27SKM and stopped the Su-30MK2. The MK3 is supposed to have the Zhuk MSE which uses a slotted planar.
As far as we know, the Russian Zhemchug proposed for the J-10 is a slotted planar and so is the Israeli ELTA M 2032. The Lavi's ELTA M 2035 is also a slotted planar.
In my opinion, the J-11B will also be a slotted planar, either by NRIET (No. 14) or by LETRI (No. 607), though I view LETRI to be more of a runnerup.
However, one can't rule out a passive phase array, given China's mastery of this technology. My opinion is that the radar on the J-10 and J-11B is at least a slotted planar made by NRIET, which I think is the leading candidate to win the radar contract for the J-11B, but a passive phase array is within the realm of possibility.
I think with a slotted planar, the J-11B should have a performance comparable to the Su-30MK3 and its Zhuk MSE, and I think that is one of the reasons why the MK3 project---and all MKK related projects---was placed into hiatus. To do better than the J-11B, Russia needs to offer a plane with a passive phase array like the Su-35. But for how long again, till China masters putting phase arrays on fighter aircraft which is becoming a near term possibility.
My idea of proposed Su-35 for China would include N001VEP enhanced with Pero Phase Array, aka the radar code name is "Panda".
Interesting, I thought the ones on mkk were slotted array at least. To think, they were still using cassegrain radar. sad...
Now that you mentionned the difference between track and track while scan, it really makes me wonder whether the track numbers given for J-10 are track or track while scan. Anyhow, I did hear that the most recent bunch of J-10 is using PESA radar. J-11B is likely getting PESA too. We will see.
Now that you mentionned the difference between track and track while scan, it really makes me wonder whether the track numbers given for J-10 are track or track while scan. Anyhow, I did hear that the most recent bunch of J-10 is using PESA radar. J-11B is likely getting PESA too. We will see.
I doubt that the J-10 will have such as antiquated mode as tracking without scanning. Track while scan, although innovative around the late eighties to early nineties, is a pretty routine today. The question is, whether the J-10 has a VS (Velocity Search mode) which can be used to track even more targets at a greater range and aperture, but presents only velocity information. I think its still up to debate if such a mode has some tactical value.
The most important mode for your situational awareness is none of these however, it is the good old Range While Search, which offers the greatest range and field of aperture than any of the tracking modes.
Twist Cassegrain is a bit different from a Cassegrain which uses a parabolic antenna. Parabolics are great for range but got poor sidelob performance. That means they're not good at scanning things that are not front center of the antenna. Unlike a Cassegrain, a Twist Cassegrain uses a flat plane reflecting dish rather than a curved bowl shaped dish. You can look it up to at Google to make a long story short about the advantages and disadvantages of Twist Cassegrains. It does offer wider and less aperture blocking than mere cassegrain designs,. and having a flat plane receiving disk, it is suitable for monopulse and pulse doppler radars. Of course I think it's not as good as a slotted array, but it is less complicated compared the kinds of mechanisms like servos needed to run a slotted array. It is for these reasons the Russians went for twist cassegrains while the West went to slotted arrays.
but as you can see, after the Cold War ended, even the Russians through the Phazotron NIIR company started evolving their own slotted planar designs that became the Zhuk series of radars. Another radar company, Tikhonov NIIP, bypassed the slotted planar stage and went straight to passive phase array. The latter company is responsible for the N001 and the BARS radar, as well as the Pero phase array option for the N001VEP.
To explain the latter, this is a proposed phase array upgrade to the MKK's radar system. Rather than replacing the entire radar set, the twist cassegrain is replaced by a phase array, along with some additional circuitry for support. The resulting upgrade is much cheaper than changing an entire radar, reduces the costly testing process, takes less time to implement, and yet produces a radar comparable to performance as BARS, with comparable multitargeting and only slightly less less range.
The most important mode for your situational awareness is none of these however, it is the good old Range While Search, which offers the greatest range and field of aperture than any of the tracking modes.
Twist Cassegrain is a bit different from a Cassegrain which uses a parabolic antenna. Parabolics are great for range but got poor sidelob performance. That means they're not good at scanning things that are not front center of the antenna. Unlike a Cassegrain, a Twist Cassegrain uses a flat plane reflecting dish rather than a curved bowl shaped dish. You can look it up to at Google to make a long story short about the advantages and disadvantages of Twist Cassegrains. It does offer wider and less aperture blocking than mere cassegrain designs,. and having a flat plane receiving disk, it is suitable for monopulse and pulse doppler radars. Of course I think it's not as good as a slotted array, but it is less complicated compared the kinds of mechanisms like servos needed to run a slotted array. It is for these reasons the Russians went for twist cassegrains while the West went to slotted arrays.
but as you can see, after the Cold War ended, even the Russians through the Phazotron NIIR company started evolving their own slotted planar designs that became the Zhuk series of radars. Another radar company, Tikhonov NIIP, bypassed the slotted planar stage and went straight to passive phase array. The latter company is responsible for the N001 and the BARS radar, as well as the Pero phase array option for the N001VEP.
To explain the latter, this is a proposed phase array upgrade to the MKK's radar system. Rather than replacing the entire radar set, the twist cassegrain is replaced by a phase array, along with some additional circuitry for support. The resulting upgrade is much cheaper than changing an entire radar, reduces the costly testing process, takes less time to implement, and yet produces a radar comparable to performance as BARS, with comparable multitargeting and only slightly less less range.