PLA "Stride-2014" Military Exercise

Doombreed

Junior Member
International competitions such as the West Point one I mentioned above, on the other hand, can be used as a measuring stick since everyone was put in the same situation and no one was acting for the camera. And when that happens and in a competition designed by the best military academy in the world to simulate actual combat, the Chinese team beat most of the competition.

This gets me angry like nothing else. Jesus fucking Christ. Chinese SF routinely takes out that stupid international SF competition too. Why don't you rate the PLA SF above DevGru, Delta and the SAS as well?

It's like the Olympics. Does the number of Chinese medals imply that China has one of the fittest, most fitness oriented population in the world? Far from it. That's the kind of useless politicized pissing contest/pony show I was talking about. Now I see why they do it. Just look at you swallowing the propaganda.
 

Doombreed

Junior Member
Actually, I'm implying that any attempts to draw extensive conclusions of proficiency and combat readiness (along with perceptions of "political showmanship") will be made through the distorted lens of a CCTV camera.
There are some likely conclusions we can draw, such as regarding equipment (the lack of body armour in many exercises, for one of many), and incidences of what we interpret as shabby procedure, but whether we can generalize it into a larger picture is another matter. That is where I disagree.

Those are heady assumptions. Not unfair nor fully unsubstantiated, depending on how much credence you give what we see. I'll address this point in my next paragraph.

I think you are misrepresenting my position, as a matter of fact I've never thought the PLA was a peerless tier one fighting force, and one has to be blind to see underlying problems in equipment and training realism -- those are all points I've fully believed in.

I don't disagree with the general foundation of your points -- the PLA does need greater training realism, they do need to equip their soldiers better, and place emphasis on a stronger NCO corps. But I disagree with the specificity of your accusations which I do not believe we have the generalize and judge from, based on our limited and circumstantial evidence.

I'm not rationalizing poor performance in the exercises due to the current units being drawn from the less elite units, that was a point for additional consideration on top of the main fact that the exercises were designed to provide overwhelming advantages for the opfor.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the fact that the PLA is finding out now" -- are you saying they haven't found out before, meaning you're assuming these exercises are the first ones they've practiced for their B team units? Because I never mentioned anything about these exercises having been preceded by or not preceded by any similar exercises.

(And weren't you the one that said an exercise with such parameters were useless in the first place, because they were too unrealistic?)

Unfortunately that will probably require CCTV and the PLA's PR team to not have a presence.

We have pictures of PLA troops doing exercises and photo shoots that look ridiculous -- jumping through hoops of fire, SOF pretending to spar with each using dadao, mass martial arts training, and obviously (poorly) scripted statements by commanders and soldiers in CCTV reports. And I agree that does represent showmanship, but the presence of that does not mean they are not proficient in other practical areas. I'm obviously not claiming the entirety of the PLA is a well oiled war machine, I'm only saying that showmanship seen through stupid CCTV news reports and documentaries (not to mention empty headed PLA PR teams)
The above does not seek to explain deificiencies in equipment or other areas that are visually seen through pictures or news reports, and we can draw a few conclusions that pass the smell test.

Also, seeing some soldiers who look squared away and brisk in their actions is no more indicative that the entire PLA are at a similar level of professionalism, anymore than seeing some soldiers who look shabby is indicative of the entire PLA at a similar level of disrepair.

Good points and you're right, it's not fair to make blanket judgements from the limited data. But I'm just calling it like I see it. Look at the amount of coverage this is getting. The PLA PR team is obviously quite proud of this. Which leads to the question of what are they not showing you? If their show piece is such a dog's breakfast, I'll hate to see what their regular field ex look like.

The PLA PR team is PLA too right? How the fuck does no one in the PLA know what good soldiering looks like? I don't buy the "oh we're camping this up on purpose, the real PLA operators are a lot more professional".

If anything, the PR footage should look more professional if the real PLA knows what's good soldiering. If this is what they think good soldiering should look like, imagine how they act when the camera is not around.
 

vesicles

Colonel
This gets me angry like nothing else. Jesus fucking Christ. Chinese SF routinely takes out that stupid international SF competition too. Why don't you rate the PLA SF above DevGru, Delta and the SAS as well?

It's like the Olympics. Does the number of Chinese medals imply that China has one of the fittest, most fitness oriented population in the world? Far from it. That's the kind of useless politicized pissing contest/pony show I was talking about. Now I see why they do it. Just look at you swallowing the propaganda.

Well it is propaganda all right. It is propaganda from the West Point! Guess how I found out about the competition? West Point website and they showed the scores!

And the Olympics comparison is a bad one. You can say because the Chinese are winning the medals at the Olympics, they may have good athletes, meaning nothing about the general public. Why? Average Joes like us will never know the methods and many of us never have the drive to train to become anything close to an athlete. However, winning at the Olympics means you know how to train your athletes to become the best of the best. That means having best equipment, best training protocols, nutrition, etc. the same can be said of military competitions. It means they have the equipment and they know the techniques. And they have people who are willing to go all the way.

Btw, although I am not the most religious person in the world, but using curse words and mentioing The Lord in the same sentence is a bit offensive.
 
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Doombreed

Junior Member
Well it is propaganda all right. It is propaganda from the West Point! Guess how I found out about the competition? West Point website and they showed the scores!

No one cares in the west about these competition. Chinese cares about these competitions. So the CCP tries very hard to win them.

And the Olympics comparison is a bad one. You can say because the Chinese are winning the medals at the Olympics, they may have good athletes, meaning nothing about the general public. Why? Average Joes like us will never know the methods and many of us never have the drive to train to become anything close to an athlete. However, winning at the Olympics means you know how to train your athletes to become the best of the best. That means having best equipment, best training protocols, nutrition, etc. the same can be said of military competitions. It means they have the equipment and they know the techniques. And they have people who are willing to go all the way.

The Olympics means if you want to throw money at sports developement for national pride you'll get good results. The SF competition means if you throw money and training at winning those competitions you'll get good results. The first one doesn't mean your populaton is fit. The second one doesn't mean your armed forces is capable.

The west trains actual war fighters to fight in real wars. Not some stupid competition that says nothing about unit capability. I'll let you in on something. The west send guys to these competition as perks. It's a paid holiday to some foreign country for guys that grease up their officers the best. You shoot guns and run a jungle lane or two with a bunch of operators from other countries in the day and go on the piss at night. No one gives a fuck.

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make this whole time. Train your freaking grunts like they going to fight a war. Not pulling these showy stunts for internal consumption. But that being said. Look at you lapping this up. No wonder they do it. It's what the audience want.
 

vesicles

Colonel
No one cares in the west about these competition. Chinese cares about these competitions. So the CCP tries very hard to win them.



The Olympics means if you want to throw money at sports developement for national pride you'll get good results. The SF competition means if you throw money and training at winning those competitions you'll get good results. The first one doesn't mean your populaton is fit. The second one doesn't mean your armed forces is capable.

The west trains actual war fighters to fight in real wars. Not some stupid competition that says nothing about unit capability. I'll let you in on something. The west send guys to these competition as perks. It's a paid holiday to some foreign country for guys that grease up their officers the best. You shoot guns and run a jungle lane or two with a bunch of operators from other countries in the day and go on the piss at night. No one gives a fuck.

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make this whole time. Train your freaking grunts like they going to fight a war. Not pulling these showy stunts for internal consumption. But that being said. Look at you lapping this up. No wonder they do it. It's what the audience want.

First of all, watch that mouth of yours. This is a professional forum. Stop swearing.

Secondly, the competition I mentioned was a cadet competition between military academies. Students! Cadets! Not actual soldiers. This has nothing to do with sending someone to a vacation. These are best students trying to make their CV shinier for a better career. So they try their best.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Good points and you're right, it's not fair to make blanket judgements from the limited data. But I'm just calling it like I see it. Look at the amount of coverage this is getting. The PLA PR team is obviously quite proud of this. Which leads to the question of what are they not showing you? If their show piece is such a dog's breakfast, I'll hate to see what their regular field ex look like.

Actually, this exercise is not receiving that much more coverage than other exercises in the past of a similar scale.
It is only being reported a little more here, and on Chinese BBS, due to the relatively unique circumstances of the exercises.


The PLA PR team is PLA too right? How the fuck does no one in the PLA know what good soldiering looks like? I don't buy the "oh we're camping this up on purpose, the real PLA operators are a lot more professional".

If anything, the PR footage should look more professional if the real PLA knows what's good soldiering. If this is what they think good soldiering should look like, imagine how they act when the camera is not around.

I'm as frustrated as anyone at the poor PR of not only the PLA, but also of the government, with regards to a variety of issues, usually related to not only news media but entertainment media.
But we can be certain of some instances of PR meddling in photos and videos, such as lighting up CICs in PLAN warships for news crews even though we know the PLAN do turn off lights as per normal navies to reduce ambient light, or the blatant examples of PLA SOF doing ridiculous dadao sparring in orchestrated poses.

Also, you're assuming whatever arm of the PLA is responsible for PR knows what "good soldiering" looks like, which I think is not a light assumption.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
This gets me angry like nothing else. Jesus fucking Christ. Chinese SF routinely takes out that stupid international SF competition too. Why don't you rate the PLA SF above DevGru, Delta and the SAS as well?

It's like the Olympics. Does the number of Chinese medals imply that China has one of the fittest, most fitness oriented population in the world? Far from it. That's the kind of useless politicized pissing contest/pony show I was talking about. Now I see why they do it. Just look at you swallowing the propaganda.

See, the way I interpreted his post, was that it is just as ridiculous to say the entire PLA is better or as good as their elite peers due to the results of various exercises, as it is to say that the entire PLA is as bad or worse as whatever examples in photos or CCTV videos, of soldiers we perceive as inept.
 

vesicles

Colonel
See, the way I interpreted his post, was that it is just as ridiculous to say the entire PLA is better or as good as their elite peers due to the results of various exercises, as it is to say that the entire PLA is as bad or worse as whatever examples in photos or CCTV videos, of soldiers we perceive as inept.

Exactly! He swallowed that propaganda just as bad, except he swallowed the bad part.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A term Mr. Doom has been tossing around is Tier one. That refers to a top class of Special Operations usually Counter Terrorist and denied operations where the Soldier is more sophisticated then your general grunt. But Tier one units are specialized in there jobs and roles you can't use a SF ODA in place of a infantry unit or vice versa. Second on the complaints of gear. Having seen alot of photos over the years I suspect that the PLA gear in some functions is not really issued to the individual and more to the mission particularly in exorcizes where Miles is used. This means his vest may have looked pristine because it was. It was fresh to that mission never having been used by that soldier.
now The PLA has come along way and still has far to go. I would hardly place them on the bottom of the list nor the top but one thing I have noted is that the photos released from them are more staged with only a few clues to the reality mixed in. The pristine photos are likely early in the exercise. Taken as glory shots for release. The gritty stuff the occasional release of reality that the censors approve. I do think that some of the out come particularly the results was really more patriotism then actually a likely result.
Having Combat Experience is not always a absolute need. It helps to learn and change situations and mindset but at a bloody cost.
 

ahho

Junior Member
I was watching the video was a bit concerned at first when they interviewed soldier and he was stating that dust was a problem (he was not really complaining, but he stated it in a way that he did not encounter this level before). Tanks were breaking down and gearbox is broken. I was really concern until I re-read the first post and got a little comfort knowing that they are from different military region. This still make me wonders how different military region train their troops. Do they focus of training and have troops familiarizing their own military region environment and the immediate neighbor's. (More defensively then offense)

This exercise is really good to give troops a taste of the endurance required and experience working under different environment (such as repairs and combat). I love seeing all type of equipment being thrown to battle
 
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