PLA Small arms

MwRYum

Major
Broccoli is correct it is a carbine conversion but is it a toy? I hope so.
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The brand APS, IIRC, co-oped with a major arms manufacturer in China to produce airsoft for them, which is probably what gives their product the "real deal-ish" finishes. Case in point is their CAM870, which feels like the real M870 shotgun in form and mechanical action, plus able to take real gun mod kits straight on.

And, that pic obviously shows it pairs with a Glock pistol as well...
 

StopSquarkS

New Member
I read this article today:

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I wonder what other people think, for those who don't read Chinese, I will try to summarize:

  • The author claims to be a veteran with experience with both Type 81 and 95 rifles
  • The key advantage of the 95 over the 81 is size and weight which is important since the Chinese soldier is expected to be on foot more often than soviet counterpart
  • The AR and AK families were designed to fit their respective users, the US emphasized range and precision while the Soviets emphasized simplicity and reliability. While an adopter of the AK with Type 56(assault rifle), PLA traditionally placed heavy emphasis on marksmanship and precision due to its experiences in wars where ammunition shortages were common. Therefore, it also adopted the SKS as Type 56(carbine) as complement.
  • While preparing for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the PLA brass realized that the advantages of the SKS in Jungle warfare were limited, so withdrew it in large numbers and substituted with Type 56 assault rifles and Type 79 sub-machine gun (which he claims has problems but did not elaborate), but this exposed the short-comings of the Type 56 and resulted in the Type 81, which had much improved accuracy.
  • Type 81 was adopted when other countries have already moved to smaller caliber rifles, but China was slow to adopt a smaller caliber so an entire generation of soldiers got used to the Type 81.
  • In 1998, when the author's unit first tested the Type 95, its report concluded that it's "not suitable for mass adoption by front-line forces". He goes on to claim that 10 years later, there is still resistance to its adoption, in boarder patrol units in particular.
  • While there has been many televised tests of the 95's reliability in adverse conditions, the author claims they fail to simulate the long-term effects of these environments, it's also unrealistic to assume that rifles could be cleaned regularly under field conditions, as result, it's less reliable than the 81.
  • Despite weight savings and more ammunition with smaller caliber, the author went on to identify the following problems:
    • The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire.
    • The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision.
    • Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target.
    • Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant)
    • No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty.
    He believes that while these problems can be mitigated, the Type 81 is much more robust and friendly to recruits.
  • Problems with the 95 resulted in the development of the QBZ-03 to finally replace Type 81.

Is this just another case of older soldiers complaining about change in equipment or was the Type 95 really a step backwards from the Type 81 in some areas?
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I read this article today:

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I wonder what other people think, for those who don't read Chinese, I will try to summarize:

  • The author claims to be a veteran with experience with both Type 81 and 95 rifles
  • The key advantage of the 95 over the 81 is size and weight which is important since the Chinese soldier is expected to be on foot more often than soviet counterpart
Interesting, Russian Forces are heavily mechanized. Even there Airborne and Marine Forces use Armored. Terrain wise Mechanization would be well suited to the Gobi and Urbanized portions of the PRC, Foot patrol would be more needed for Mountain and jungle who would be rotorcraft/Aircraft based or foot patrol.
[*]The AR and AK families were designed to fit their respective users, the US emphasized range and precision while the Soviets emphasized simplicity and reliability. While an adopter of the AK with Type 56(assault rifle), PLA traditionally placed heavy emphasis on marksmanship and precision due to its experiences in wars where ammunition shortages were common. Therefore, it also adopted the SKS as Type 56(carbine) as complement.
True, enough so according to the Author the PLA would more favor the AR then the AK in terms of design emphasis and yet at the same time he will contradict himself.
[*]While preparing for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the PLA brass realized that the advantages of the SKS in Jungle warfare were limited, so withdrew it in large numbers and substituted with Type 56 assault rifles and Type 79 sub-machine gun (which he claims has problems but did not elaborate), but this exposed the short-comings of the Type 56 and resulted in the Type 81, which had much improved accuracy.
Taking a SKS based carbine into a conflict with a enemy using selective fire weapons never made sense, like the Confederate army with Breech loading rifles going against Union Soldiers with Repeating carbines.
The US army did a study after WW2, Project SALVO it studied combat reports from millions of engagements in WW2, It concluded that infantry battles happened when two forces more or less stumbled onto each other, that the unit with more fire power tended to win and that hitting a target was a literal hit or miss as aimed fire made little difference as both sides were moving targets. Salvo also found that most troops never fired there weapons and that those that did tended to be using automatic weapons it recommended issuing selective fire weapons to all troops but concluded that Doing so would increase ammo consumption and therefore require a ammo that was easier to carry, the results would eventually lead to selection of the Ar15 and it's modification into the M16 series.
[*]Type 81 was adopted when other countries have already moved to smaller caliber rifles, but China was slow to adopt a smaller caliber so an entire generation of soldiers got used to the Type 81.,
Accurate, By 1981 the US had M16A1 with M16A2 on the way, the Soviets had the AK74, the the Austrian Steyr AUG was in the Works having entered production in 1978, the SG 540 was in swiss service, FN CAL was under development although it would fail, it's data would lead to the FN FNC in the 1980's Both Famas and SA80 were in the works.
[*]In 1998, when the author's unit first tested the Type 95, its report concluded that it's not suitable for adoption by front-line forces. He goes on to claim that 10 years later, there is still resistance to its adoption, in boarder patrol units in particular.
[*]While there has been many televised tests of the 95's reliability in adverse conditions, the author claims they fail to simulate the long-term effects of these environments, it's also unrealistic to assume that rifles could be cleaned regularly under field conditions, as result, it's less reliable than the 81.
Now this is the contradiction. M16A1,M16A2, M16A4 and M4 and M4A1 as well as any number of western systems show that regular maintenance is a must and is done. most western arms are designed for ease of this particularly bullpups thaat use easy to open butt pads and reduced part numbers.
[*]Despite weight savings and more ammunition with smaller caliber, the author went on to identify the following problems:
  • The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire.
  • The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision.
  • Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target.
  • Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant)
  • No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty.
He believes that while these problems can be mitigated,
A Deflector and change of powder can correct the first two points, the Third is a issue with all bullpups, it can be eased though For example the latest X95 and Desert Tech MDR both place the magazine ejection in the same location as that of a AR. to do this however requires a AR style magazine latch Type 95 uses a AK style mag latch needing a rocking action to seat.
the Type 81 is much more robust and friendly to recruits.
Sure but will these recruits be using type 81's ot 95's? If they were to be issued Type 81's or Type 03's I could see giving the Training recruits Type 81's or even Type 56 carbines. but if you intend to give your troops QBZ95 or derivatives there in even if it means spending more time in basic learning the weapon. You need them to learn the system.
[*]Problems with the 95 resulted in the development of the QBZ-03 to finally replace Type 81.
except 03 seems more selectively issued. The Question is what is the Aim of the PLA infantry. Bulls give advantages in close quarters and some weight savings but not much. it's main savings is length. a X95 with a 13 inch barrel has a length of 22.83 inches a G36K with a 12.5 inch barrel ( note half a inch shorter ) is 33.85 Inches long Almost twice as long. That Said Bulls compromise in ergonomics and ambidextrous friendliness.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
I read this article today:

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I wonder what other people think, for those who don't read Chinese, I will try to summarize:

  • The author claims to be a veteran with experience with both Type 81 and 95 rifles
  • The key advantage of the 95 over the 81 is size and weight which is important since the Chinese soldier is expected to be on foot more often than soviet counterpart
  • The AR and AK families were designed to fit their respective users, the US emphasized range and precision while the Soviets emphasized simplicity and reliability. While an adopter of the AK with Type 56(assault rifle), PLA traditionally placed heavy emphasis on marksmanship and precision due to its experiences in wars where ammunition shortages were common. Therefore, it also adopted the SKS as Type 56(carbine) as complement.
  • While preparing for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the PLA brass realized that the advantages of the SKS in Jungle warfare were limited, so withdrew it in large numbers and substituted with Type 56 assault rifles and Type 79 sub-machine gun (which he claims has problems but did not elaborate), but this exposed the short-comings of the Type 56 and resulted in the Type 81, which had much improved accuracy.
  • Type 81 was adopted when other countries have already moved to smaller caliber rifles, but China was slow to adopt a smaller caliber so an entire generation of soldiers got used to the Type 81.
  • In 1998, when the author's unit first tested the Type 95, its report concluded that it's "not suitable for mass adoption by front-line forces". He goes on to claim that 10 years later, there is still resistance to its adoption, in boarder patrol units in particular.
  • While there has been many televised tests of the 95's reliability in adverse conditions, the author claims they fail to simulate the long-term effects of these environments, it's also unrealistic to assume that rifles could be cleaned regularly under field conditions, as result, it's less reliable than the 81.
  • Despite weight savings and more ammunition with smaller caliber, the author went on to identify the following problems:
    • The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire.
    • The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision.
    • Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target.
    • Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant)
    • No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty.
    He believes that while these problems can be mitigated, the Type 81 is much more robust and friendly to recruits.
  • Problems with the 95 resulted in the development of the QBZ-03 to finally replace Type 81.

Is this just another case of older soldiers complaining about change in equipment or was the Type 95 really a step backwards from the Type 81 in some areas?

I admit that I have not use the Type 81 or Type 95 before. But was experience with the M16S1 and SR88 assault rifle when I am serving NSF in Singapore Armed Forces more than a decades back. It really take some time to get use to newer bullpup design (SAR-21) and I hear lots of complains by old soldiers (same or older era as myself) which is the same as myself who can find heaps of things that we don't like about our newer SAR-21... from the way it looks, the way it force us to fire higher up, the way we cannot change the magazine as we are used to, to the fear that when there is a chamber explosion, our face is too near to the chamber and we will get half the face blown off, even when the manufacturer claimed that there is an armored plate where we rest our face on. Also I remember complaining that the damn cocking handle is too small, etc etc.

But younger generation of soldiers who are introduced the SAR-21 immediately when they joined military and had not use the M16S1 or SR-88 before, doesn't seemed to have these issues that we face and fear.

So it is kind of preferences from soldiers in general... or what they are used to. I can safely say that... if you are used to using a sword, you will not want to go on and use a crossbow. And when you are used to a crossbow, it will take some time or at all for you to get used to using a musket rifle.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I read this article today:

[*]Despite weight savings and more ammunition with smaller caliber, the author went on to identify the following problems:
  • The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire.
  • The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision.
  • Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target.
  • Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant)
  • No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty.
He believes that while these problems can be mitigated, the Type 81 is much more robust and friendly to recruits.
[*]Problems with the 95 resulted in the development of the QBZ-03 to finally replace Type 81.
[/LIST]

Is this just another case of older soldiers complaining about change in equipment or was the Type 95 really a step backwards from the Type 81 in some areas?

Thanks for the translation Shark. Here is my answer to resolving those problems, especially during combat.

[*]The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire. - Put an ear plug on that right ear.


[*]The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision. - All bullet does and so is enemy white smoke grenades, so get used to firing at obscure targets.


[*]Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target. - Drill yourself to be familiar at reloading until it became almost like second nature. Don't forget soldiers have to fidget around their battle vest to get access to the magazines as well. So eyes on the target is a luxury unless you are taking out an enemy bunker.


[*]Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant) - Again drill yourself about safety if you have the older variant. Meaning use two hands.



[*]No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty. - Put tracer rounds in the magazines to indicate that you are emptied of rounds in your magazines.


If that veteran thinks that the Type 95 requires a lot of cleaning maintenance, wait until he tries using the M-16 or AR type that the US uses. Solution? Put a healthy amount of CLP lubricant into the chamber and bolt. That way it would be EASIER to clean once it is caked with mud, dust, etc. None of that using "dental tool" to clean every single crevices after EVERY use.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Thanks for the translation Shark. Here is my answer to resolving those problems, especially during combat.

[*]The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire. - Put an ear plug on that right ear.


[*]The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision. - All bullet does and so is enemy white smoke grenades, so get used to firing at obscure targets.


[*]Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target. - Drill yourself to be familiar at reloading until it became almost like second nature. Don't forget soldiers have to fidget around their battle vest to get access to the magazines as well. So eyes on the target is a luxury unless you are taking out an enemy bunker.


[*]Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant) - Again drill yourself about safety if you have the older variant. Meaning use two hands.



[*]No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty. - Put tracer rounds in the magazines to indicate that you are emptied of rounds in your magazines.


If that veteran thinks that the Type 95 requires a lot of cleaning maintenance, wait until he tries using the M-16 or AR type that the US uses. Solution? Put a healthy amount of CLP lubricant into the chamber and bolt. That way it would be EASIER to clean once it is caked with mud, dust, etc. None of that using "dental tool" to clean every single crevices after EVERY use.

Agreed with you 100%.

Frankly speaking, I am pretty surprised that a soldier would think his weapons required alot of cleaning maintenance. I always thought that taking care of your equipment is something like the second nature of a soldier. No good soldier would neglect that even if he/she was out in the field.

Plus the veteran is complaining alot on the operation of the rifle which actually means that he is not too familiar with the weapon itself, which can be surprising and I seriously hope he doesn't represent the bulk of China PLA soldiers.
 

MwRYum

Major
I read this article today:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I wonder what other people think, for those who don't read Chinese, I will try to summarize:

  • The author claims to be a veteran with experience with both Type 81 and 95 rifles
  • The key advantage of the 95 over the 81 is size and weight which is important since the Chinese soldier is expected to be on foot more often than soviet counterpart
  • The AR and AK families were designed to fit their respective users, the US emphasized range and precision while the Soviets emphasized simplicity and reliability. While an adopter of the AK with Type 56(assault rifle), PLA traditionally placed heavy emphasis on marksmanship and precision due to its experiences in wars where ammunition shortages were common. Therefore, it also adopted the SKS as Type 56(carbine) as complement.
  • While preparing for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the PLA brass realized that the advantages of the SKS in Jungle warfare were limited, so withdrew it in large numbers and substituted with Type 56 assault rifles and Type 79 sub-machine gun (which he claims has problems but did not elaborate), but this exposed the short-comings of the Type 56 and resulted in the Type 81, which had much improved accuracy.
  • Type 81 was adopted when other countries have already moved to smaller caliber rifles, but China was slow to adopt a smaller caliber so an entire generation of soldiers got used to the Type 81.
  • In 1998, when the author's unit first tested the Type 95, its report concluded that it's "not suitable for mass adoption by front-line forces". He goes on to claim that 10 years later, there is still resistance to its adoption, in boarder patrol units in particular.
  • While there has been many televised tests of the 95's reliability in adverse conditions, the author claims they fail to simulate the long-term effects of these environments, it's also unrealistic to assume that rifles could be cleaned regularly under field conditions, as result, it's less reliable than the 81.
  • Despite weight savings and more ammunition with smaller caliber, the author went on to identify the following problems:
    • The ejection window is close to the face, causing ringing in right-ear after automatic fire.
    • The 5.8 mm ammunition he was issued gave off heavy white smoke that obscured vision.
    • Much slower magazine change than Type 81 and requires taking eyes off target.
    • Bad safety/fire selector placement (I know this was fixed with newer variant)
    • No indication when the last round is fired and chamber is empty.
    He believes that while these problems can be mitigated, the Type 81 is much more robust and friendly to recruits.
  • Problems with the 95 resulted in the development of the QBZ-03 to finally replace Type 81.

Is this just another case of older soldiers complaining about change in equipment or was the Type 95 really a step backwards from the Type 81 in some areas?

Most of China's infantry arms, especially their crew-served ones, were bonded by their PLA's shortfall in mechanization, thus overwhelmingly rely on muscle-and-leg power. Hopefully now they finally leave the lean years behind things would change.

There has been some reliability issues with Type 79 earlier on due to the you-know-what time it was under R&D and first introduced (which plagued every weapons programme at that time, including the 5.8mm ammo), but its biggest drawback as a SMG is its 20-rounds magazine.

As for the QBZ-95, that addressed most of the commonly acknowledged problems and largely resolved in the QBZ-95-1. But I wonder his fret about servicing is a carry-over from the past when the likes of Type 81 or Type 56 in particular can function well with little maintenance, alas sacrifice on other performance issues.

Agreed with you 100%.

Frankly speaking, I am pretty surprised that a soldier would think his weapons required alot of cleaning maintenance. I always thought that taking care of your equipment is something like the second nature of a soldier. No good soldier would neglect that even if he/she was out in the field.

Plus the veteran is complaining alot on the operation of the rifle which actually means that he is not too familiar with the weapon itself, which can be surprising and I seriously hope he doesn't represent the bulk of China PLA soldiers.

The reason can pretty much boiled down to the "muscle memory" problem, which is why the IDF would resort to have their senior soldiers keep using M16 / M4 while their newer breeds start using TAR21.

Also, while I've been away from Singapore over the last decade or so, thus I've not the chance to get introduced to SAR-21 (I admit, by technicality I do owe the SAF my re-service time, but being just a LCP they find me too useless to make an effort to recall me from overseas), what I heard from other veterans they simply loved it, thanks to the integrated scope everyone becomes marksman, and you've to be utterly hopeless not to be one.
 
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