PLA missile defense system

Orthan

Senior Member
China has no functioning Aircraft carriere so it is moot point if you asking for actual testing in yellow sea with actual carriere .It will never happened But you can simulate target in Gobi dessert where China actually testing most of their balistic missile. I don't know how they do it . But the porgram has been going for at least 15 to 20 years. Now they have everything in place from Surveillance, Targeting and the actual missile. The technology as well has matured enough from concept to actual development of hardware and the supporting technology of tracking, targeting as proven by the Anti ballistic missile test. So I wouldn't discount it off hand that they never been tested. As one of the ONI Analyst said

In November 2009, Scott Bray, ONI’s Senior Intelligence Officer-China, said that Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile development “has progressed at a remarkable rate.” In the span of just over a decade, he said, “China has taken the ASBM program from the conceptual phase to nearing an operational capability.… China has elements of an [over-the-horizon] network already in place and is working to expand its horizon, timeliness and accuracy.”

When someone of Bray’s stature makes that kind of statement, attention is long overdue


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I don't know which source are you referring to but it is not unusual to deploy a system while at the same time perfecting the system. eg US ABM deploy is Alaska while at the same time US is still testing the system.

Admiral Willard should know what is he talking about
They have to test this thing at sea. You cannot replicate testing against a moving target with testing against a fixed target. Besides testing in sea is different from testing in land, due to atmospheric conditions. To simply say "I don't know how they do it" its not an explanation.

As for ONI, they made a report about PLAN which acording to tphuang and others is full of errors, and if what he says is true, IMO that raises a lot of questions about ONI´s competence regarding PLAN.

As for Adm. Willard, well, he is interested in congress forking out money to the navy, which is the least useful branch of the military against the war on terror (al-queida doesnt have navy)
 

Martian

Senior Member
China's anti-ship missile tests are conducted near Dalian

China conducts its anti-ship missile tests at sea near the "northern port of Dalian."

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"U.S. intelligence agencies for the past several years have been closely monitoring China's northern port of Dalian, where past anti-ship missile tests were carried out, for the first flight test of the new ASBM.

The new conventionally armed ballistic missile test, if successful, is expected to be strategically comparable to Beijing's January 2007 anti-satellite missile test.

The report by Mr. Stokes states that fielding the anti-ship missile "could alter the strategic landscape in the Asia-Pacific region and beyond."

The current missile being developed, the DF-21, has a range of about 1,500 miles, enough to threaten and deter U.S. aircraft-carrier strike groups that would be used by the Pentagon to defend Taiwan from a mainland attack or to respond to other conflicts in Asia.

The new missiles are expected to fly in the upper atmosphere or near space and thus "negate" current U.S. Navy-based missile defenses, the report says.

Beyond Asia, the report states that using missiles to hit ships as sea is the first step in China's plan for conventional long-range attack capability across the globe.

The U.S. military is developing a similar capability called prompt global strike that would enable commanders to hit targets anywhere in the world in less than an hour. The Pentagon also is conducting research on long-range anti-ship missiles.

The report states that a review of Chinese military writings reveals that anti-ship ballistic missiles are part of a "phased approach for development of a conventional global strike capability by 2025."

The phases include extending the targeting range of precision guided conventional warhead missiles from 1,240 by 2010 to 1,860 miles in 2015, up to 5,000 miles by 2020, and globewide missile capabilities by 2025 using a hypersonic cruise vehicle.

The missile programs include maneuvering re-entry vehicles and warheads with on-board sensors that are accurate enough to attack ships in the ocean moving at up to 35 knots at sea.

For targeting and tracking, China is developing a comprehensive system of space, ground and sea radar and sensors, including a "near-space" vehicle that would be deployed out of range of most surface-to-air missiles.

In addition to using it during a conflict over Taiwan, China also could use its long-range missiles in any conflict in the South China Sea or in response to threats to close sea lanes used to transport oil to China."
 
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Martian

Senior Member
This is pretty straightforward and I don't understand why you, Scratch and Orthan, are having so much trouble understanding something so simple.

"Adm. Robert Willard, the head of U.S. Pacific Command (PACOM), made an alarming but little-noticed disclosure. China, he told legislators, was 'developing and testing a conventional anti-ship ballistic missile based on the DF-21/CSS-5 [medium-range ballistic missile] designed specifically to target aircraft carriers.'"

Now, most people do not interpret Admiral Willard's statement to mean that he's worried because China is conducting a wind-tunnel study (e.g. Scratch's goofy example) of an ASBM. It doesn't take a genius to understand that Admiral Willard is informing us that China is at the final step of testing an actual functioning ASBM.

To help you understand what successful testing means, China conducted a successful ASAT (i.e. anti-satellite test) in 2007; which was not in a wind-tunnel. Furthermore, China conducted a successful mid-course ground-based-interceptor (i.e. GBI) test in 2010; which also was not in a wind-tunnel.

Admiral Willard has officially confirmed in front of Congress that China is "testing a conventional [ASBM]...designed specifically to target aircraft carriers." That is all that Admiral Willard is willing to reveal. China is conducting real-live ASBM test(s) and the results are presumably classified at this time. To clarify, this does not imply that China is conducting wind-tunnel studies. It means that Admiral Willard is not willing to share with you the results of China's ASBM test(s).

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"14 May 2010
China Testing Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM); U.S. Preparing Accordingly–Now Updated With Additional Sources

Admiral Robert F. Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command (PACOM), recently testified in writing before the House (25 March) and Senate (26 March) Armed Services Committees that “China is… developing and testing a conventional anti-ship ballistic missile based on the DF-21/CSS-5 MRBM designed specifically to target aircraft carriers.” Admiral Willard’s testimony in this regard has been covered in the Washington Times, and is receiving extensive attention in the Chinese blogosphere. More broadly, Admiral Willard’s testimony offers an excellent overview of China’s military progress, which has been particularly rapid in key areas that offer the potential to hold U.S. military platforms at risk in the Western Pacific.

The hearings themselves are worth watching. For the key exchange in Admiral Willard’s testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, go to minute 29:35 on the webcast–

Rep. Howard McKeon (R-CA), Ranking Committee Member:

“Admiral Willard, from PACOM’s perspective, how would you assess China’s intentions and capacity to develop and field disruptive technologies, including those for anti-access and area denial? Specifically, can you comment on China’s anti-ship ballistic missile capability and how it’s evolving?”

Admiral Willard:

“Thank you, Congressman McKeon. I can, and thanks for the question. The China military capacity has been growing by and large unabated for the past 10 to 20 years. The past 10 years have been pretty dramatic, and as you suggest, this has included investments in what has broadly been termed anti-access capabilities. Area denial capability is another way to think about it. And these range from the investments in submarine capabilities, to investments in integrated air and missile defense capabilities, to—as you suggest—anti-ship ballistic missile capabilities at extended ranges from the mainland of China….

That afternoon, Admiral Willard elaborated at a press conference:

Admiral Robert Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, “U.S. Military Overview of Asia-Pacific,” The Foreign Press Center, U.S. Department of State, Washington, D.C., 3:33 PM EDT, 25 March 2010.

Question: “Thank you, Admiral. Betty Lin of the World Journal. Some members – some congressional members this morning were interested in the anti-ship ballistic missile threat. Could you talk about how significant the threat is and how PACOM is preparing to address the threat? And in your past dealings with the Chinese, have you talked about this? And what was their response for that?”

Admiral Willard: “Yeah, thank you. What is being referred to as a technology development, a capability development by the People’s Republic of China to develop a ballistic missile with anti-ship capabilities – inside a broader collection of capabilities that represent anti-access, a term used to describe kind of a forward power projection capability from mainland China. Each of those capabilities are concerning without a knowledge of how they’re intended to be applied in the future.”

“So trying to understand what the ballistic – anti-ship ballistic missile system is designed for and against, and its relation with other anti-access capabilities – what that strategy entails is very much an issue that we would like to discuss mil-to-mil with the Chinese. I think this raises the importance of a continuous military-to-military dialogue, which, as you know, is currently suspended as a consequence of our announcement of the former Taiwan arms sale.”

“The issues with the PRC that we would like to discuss military- to-military include areas that we have opportunities to engage, areas of common interest, and then very frankly, these areas of broader uncertainty or concern. I think both governments and both militaries would benefit from that continuous dialogue.”

The Senate Armed Service Committee hearing lacked a direct exchange on Chinese ASBM development. The closest equivalent came in response to a question from Senator Joseph Lieberman (I-CT), when Admiral Willard discussed growth in Chinese access denial capabilities. See minute 102:29 of the webcast.

Even as China is improving its potential ability to hold U.S. aircraft carriers at risk, it is developing one of its own. In his written testimony, Admiral Willard stated, “China’s leaders are pursuing an aircraft carrier capability. In 1998 China purchased an incomplete former Soviet KUZNETSOV class aircraft carrier, which began renovations in 2002 at its shipyard in Dalian. I expect this carrier to become operational around 2012 and likely be used to develop basic carrier skills.”

In my personal opinion (as with all other writing on this website):

What is China doing, and why? While mounting evidence from Chinese doctrinal, service, technical, trade, and netizen publications suggests that China has been developing an anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) since the 1990s, this is the first official confirmation that it has advanced to the stage of actual testing. This data point should dispel notions previously held by some that Beijing could not, or would not, develop an ASBM. I know my own understanding of the issue has evolved considerably since Cortez Cooper and I testified before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission in March 2007, when I said: “China is… thought to be in the process of developing anti-ship homing warheads for its ballistic missiles, which is a very worrisome development. If they work, they would be extraordinarily difficult to defend against.” Three years later, almost to the day, many uncertainties remain, but the seriousness with which Beijing is pursuing ASBM capability is not one of them.

Admiral Willard’s disclosure, while disturbing, should surprise no one. Chinese development of ASBM systems and related capabilities has been documented publicly by previous U.S. government unclassified analyses (from the Department of Defense, National Air and Space Intelligence Center, Office of Naval Intelligence, and Congressional Research Service) as well as statements by senior officials (including Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, and Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Gary Roughead). In November 2009, Scott Bray, Senior Intelligence Officer-China, ONI, stated that: “ASBM development has progressed at a remarkable rate…. In a little over a decade, China has taken the ASBM program from the conceptual phase to nearing an operational capability. …China has elements of an [over-the-horizon] network already in place and is working to expand its horizon, timeliness and accuracy.” When the Navy’s Senior Intelligence Officer for China makes such a significant statement, attention is long overdue.

It’s not hard to see why China is developing and testing an ASBM–it strongly desires the ability to both deter advocates of independence on Taiwan and to prevent U.S. carrier strike groups (CSG) from intervening effectively in the event of a future Taiwan Strait crisis. Beijing has defined its immediate strategic concerns clearly in this regard. More broadly, the Chinese are interested in achieving an ASBM capability because it offers them the prospect of limiting the ability of other nations, particularly the United States, to exert military influence on China’s maritime periphery, which contains several disputed zones of core strategic importance to Beijing. ASBMs are regarded as a means by which technologically limited developing countries can overcome by asymmetric means their qualitative inferiority in conventional combat platforms, because the gap between offense and defense is the greatest here.

Since at least the mid-1990s, China has been engaged in a variety of efforts to develop an ASBM; current programs revolve around the “Delta,” or “D,” variant of the DF-21/CSS-5 medium-range ballistic missile (MRBM). Chinese open source publications provide strong indications that Beijing has been developing an ASBM at least since the 1995-96 Taiwan Strait Crisis. This strategic debacle for China likely convinced its leaders to never again allow U.S. carrier strike groups intervene in what they consider to be a matter of absolute sovereignty. Even China’s military, in an apparent attempt to deter the U.S. from intervening vis-à-vis Taiwan and other claimed areas on China’s disputed maritime periphery, has provided significant hints of its own ASBM progress, as well as some thought-provoking mysteries. In an unexplained cartoon animation at the end of a lengthy 29 November 2009 program on ASBMs broadcast on China Central Television Channel 7 (China’s official military channel), a sailor falsely assumes that his carrier’s Aegis defense systems can destroy an incoming ASBM as effectively as a cruise missile, with disastrous results. The program is available in Parts 1, 2, and 3 on YouTube; start at minute 7:18 on the second clip to view this disturbing sequence.

What does this mean for the U.S.? If developed and deployed successfully, a Chinese ASBM system of systems would be the world’s first capable of targeting a moving carrier strike group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers. This could make defenses against it difficult and/or highly escalatory.

Various obstacles could limit China’s ability to deploy ASBMs effectively, particularly in the areas of detection, targeting, data fusion, joint service operations, and bureaucratic coordination. When it comes to targeting a carrier strike group, there will not be a sharp red line between no capability and full capability. Some Chinese writers believe that even the significant likelihood of a capability may have a large deterrent effect. The ASBM is envisioned primarily as a deterrent weapon by Chinese analysts; to many this makes it inherently “defensive” in nature.

But make no mistake: efforts at deterrence themselves, however envisioned, can have significant strategic consequences. In this regard, it is worth noting that Beijing has consistently opposed a wide variety of U.S. missile defense efforts; if a missile specifically designed to strike an aircraft carrier is “defensive,” then how can a system specifically designed to intercept an incoming missile not be “defensive,” and hence acceptable?

On a more disturbing note, authoritative PLA sources reveal overconfidence in China’s ability to control escalation, which is itself an extraordinary danger. Chinese ASBM deployment could increase bilateral and regional tensions and may only prompt U.S. forces to deploy countermeasures rather than prevent carrier strike group employment.

When assessing possible ASBM futures, the following bears remembering: China has prioritized ballistic missiles for decades, enjoys a formidable science and technology base, and can be expected to devote considerable resources and expertise to ASBM development. If and when the DF-21D is developed sufficiently, Beijing might reveal a dramatic weapon test to the world—with or without advance warning—in some way geared to influencing official and public opinion in Taiwan, the United States, Japan, and elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific. Such an unprecedented public demonstration could be used to signal either growing Chinese power during a time of stability, or Beijing’s resolve in a time of diplomatic tension or crisis. If not addressed properly, a successful test could create the impression that American power projection capabilities—and the regional credibility that depends on them—had been dramatically diminished.

The fact of a hit, however manipulated and revealed, could change the strategic equation—much as the efficacy of the 20–21 July 1921 test-bombing of the battleship Ostfriesland was hotly contested by the U.S. Navy (and remains debated to this day), yet altered service budgets immediately and helped catalyze development of what later became the U.S. Air Force. Is there today a Chinese equivalent of Brigadier General Billy Mitchell (the iconoclastic visionary who championed the Ostfriesland demonstration to further the development of air power) eager to promote such a test to further the cause of the Second Artillery (China’s strategic rocket forces, which would likely control an ASBM) and its pioneering of new ways of warfare?

This much is clear: with the DF-21D ASBM, China appears to be intent on fielding a system that directly threatens U.S. carriers. If not countered properly, this could weaken the U.S. military alliances and reassurances that have helped maintain peace in the Western Pacific for over six decades, in part by preventing costly and dangerous arms races. The game and its governing rules are changing, whether we like it or not. Only through serious investment in counter-targeting efforts and other countermeasures can we prevent Beijing from changing the game uncontested.

What is being done to address this challenge? China’s ASBM is part of a much larger pattern in which the development and proliferation of various weapons systems–such as ballistic and cruise missiles, submarines, and naval mines–threatens to hold U.S. platforms at risk in vital areas of the global maritime commons. Today U.S. operations in the Western Pacific appear most threatened in this regard, but similar challenges are emerging in the Persian Gulf, and might eventually materialize elsewhere. Fortunately, U.S. ships will not offer a fixed target for such “asymmetric” weapons, including Chinese ASBMs. U.S. military planning documents, including the March 2010 Joint Operating Environment and February 2010 Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR)—the Pentagon’s guiding strategy document—clearly recognize America’s growing “anti-access” challenge; the QDR charges the U.S. military with multiple initiatives to address it. In a world where U.S. naval assets will often be safest underwater and in more dispersed networks, President Obama’s defense budget supports building two submarines a year and investing in a new ballistic-missile submarine, as well as a variety of missile defense systems. How best to develop and implement ASBM countermeasures is a topic of vigorous discussion in U.S. Navy circles. The U.S. is already taking important steps to prevent a Chinese ASBM from changing the rules of the game in the Western Pacific, but continued effort and vigilance of the highest order will be essential. As Admiral Willard suggests, Chinese ASBM development should also be raised in sustained discussions with China’s military to help reduce misunderstanding and miscommunication, which could produce disastrous and unintended results.

The following links (most recent first) offer further background on Chinese ASBM development. If you know of others, please send them to me, together with any ideas and insights, by accessing the “Contact” tab on the toolbar above. And feel free to post your comments below.

Testimony of the Honorable Roscoe G. Bartlett, Hearing on “China’s Emergent Military Aerospace and Commercial Aviation Capabilities,” U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, Washington, DC, 20 May 2010, p. 3.

Jan van Tol, with Mark Gunzinger, Andrew Krepinevich, and Jim Thomas, AirSea Battle: A Point-of-Departure Operational Concept (Washington, DC: Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, 18 May 2010).

“China’s Maritime Moves Prove a Game-Changer,” Canberra Times, 17 May 2010, A9.

Thomas J. Culora, “The Strategic Implications of Obscurants: History and the Future,” Naval War College Review, Vol. 63, No. 3 (Summer 2010), pp. 73-84.

Toshi Yoshihara, “Chinese Missile Strategy and the U.S. Naval Presence in Japan: The Operational View from Beijing,” Naval War College Review, Vol. 63, No. 3 (Summer 2010), pp. 39-62.

Peter J. Brown, “China’s Navy Cruises into Pacific Ascendancy,” Asia Times, 22 April 2010.

Ronald O’Rourke, “China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities—Background and Issues for Congress,” Congressional Research Service, 9 April 2010.

Wendell Minnick, “Chinese Anti-ship Missile Could Alter U.S. Power,” Defense News, 5 April 2010, p. 6.

Greg Torode, “Beijing Testing ‘Carrier Killer,’ US Warns,” South China Morning Post, 3 April 2010.

Andrew S. Erickson, “Eyes in the Sky,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 136, No. 4 (April 2010), pp. 36-41.

Andrew Erickson, “China Testing Ballistic Missile ‘Carrier-Killer’,” Danger Room, Wired.com, 29 March 2010.

Gary J. Sampson, “China’s Development of Asymmetric Capabilities and Taiwan Strait Security,” Facing China, 29 March 2010.

Bill Gertz, “Threat in Asia is Anti-Ship Missiles: China, Rogue Nations Watched,” Washington Times, 23 March 2010.

The Joint Operating Environment (JOE) 2010 (Norfolk, VA: U.S. Joint Forces Command, 15 March 2010).

Andrew F. Krepinevich, “Why AirSea Battle?,” Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, 19 February 2010.

Capt. Sam J. Tangredi, U.S. Navy (Ret.), “No Game Changer for China,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 136, No. 2 (February 2010), pp. 24-29.

Andrew Erickson, “Take China’s ASBM Potential Seriously,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 136, No. 2 (February 2010), p. 8.

Quadrennial Defense Review Report (QDR) 2010 (Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Defense, 1 February 2010).

Ballistic Missile Defense Report (Washington, DC: Department of Defense, February 2010).

Major Kim Nødskov, Royal Danish Air Force (Ret.), The Return of China: The Long March to Power—The New Historic Mission of the People’s Liberation Army (Copenhagen: Royal Danish Defence College Publishing House, January 2010).

Abraham M. Denmark and James Mulvenon, eds., Contested Commons: The Future of American Power in a Multipolar World (Washington, DC: Center for a New American Security, 25 January 2010).

Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, “China Develops ASBMs,” Observer Research Foundation, 5 January 2010.

Andrew S. Erickson, “Ballistic Trajectory—China Develops New Anti-Ship Missile,” Jane’s Intelligence Review, China Watch, 4 January 2010.

Greg Torode, Chief Asia correspondent, “Is China’s Rocket Science all it’s Cracked up to be, Experts Ask,” South China Morning Post, 3 January 2010.

Cdr. John Patch, U.S. Navy (Ret.), “Fortress at Sea? The Carrier Invulnerability Myth,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 136, No. 1 (January 2010).

Jean Hobgood, Kimberly Madison, Geoffrey Pawlowski, Steven Nedd, Michael Roberts, and Paige Rumberg, “System Architecture for Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Defense (ASBMD),” (Monterey, CA: Department of Systems Engineering, Naval Postgraduate School, December 2009).

“The PLA Air Force Over the Horizon Radar Brigade,” The Taiwan Link, 24 December 2009.

“China: Fielding a New Anti-Ship Capability,” STRATFOR, 18 November 2009.

Tony Capaccio, “China’s New Missile May Create a ‘No-Go Zone’ for U.S. Fleet,” Bloomberg, 17 November 2009.

“Required Reading: Naval War College Review Articles on China’s DF-21/ ASBM,” Missile Defense, Steeljaw Scribe, 15 November 2009.

“Mark Stokes on Missile Defense,” Project 2049 Institute, 4 November 2009.

Mark Stokes, “China’s Evolving Conventional Strategic Strike Capability: the Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Challenge to U.S. Maritime Operations in the Western Pacific and Beyond,” Occasional Paper, (Arlington, VA: Project 2049 Institute, 14 September 2009).

Andrew S. Erickson and David D. Yang, “Using the Land to Control the Sea? Chinese Analysts Consider the Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile,” Naval War College Review, Vol. 62, No. 4 (Autumn 2009), pp. 53-86.

Eric Hagt and Matthew Durnin, “China’s Antiship Ballistic Missile: Developments and Missing Links,” Naval War College Review, Vol. 62, No. 4 (Autumn 2009), pp. 87-115, A1-2.

編集委員 加藤洋一 [Yoichi Kato, National Security Correspondent], “[Part 2] 「中国空母は脅威ではない。ゲームチャンジャーは対艦弾道ミサイルだ」” [China’s Aircraft Carrier is Not at Threat. The ‘Game Changer’ is the Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile], “中国、海軍大国への胎動” [Part 2 in the Series “The Rise of China’s Naval Power”], 朝日新聞 Globe [Asahi Shinbun Globe], 10 August 2009.

The People’s Liberation Army Navy: A Modern Navy with Chinese Characteristics (Suitland, Md.: Office of Naval Intelligence, July 2009).

Andrew S. Erickson, “China’s Military Development: Maritime and Aerospace Dimensions,” presented at Defense Foundation Forum, Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC, 17 July 2009.

Paul S. Giarra and Michael J. Green, “Asia’s Military Balance at a Tipping Point,” Op-ed, Asian Wall Street Journal, 17 July 2009.

“Important Chinese ASBM Article,” Information Dissemination, 25 June 2009.

Andrew S. Erickson, “Chinese ASBM Development: Knowns and Unknowns,” Jamestown China Brief, Vol. 9, No. 13 (24 June 2009), pp. 4-8.

“More Chinese Netizen Commentary on Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Program,” The Taiwan Link, 23 June 2009.

“China’s Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Program: Checkmate for Taiwan?,” The Taiwan Link, 17 June 2009.

“Hearing on the Implications of China’s Naval Modernization for the United States,” U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, 11 June 2009.

Paul S. Giarra, “A Chinese Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile: Implications for the USN,” Statement Before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, Washington, DC, 11 June 2009.

Andrew S. Erickson, “Facing a New Missile Threat from China (Op-Ed): How the U.S. Should Respond to China’s Development of Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Systems,” CBS News, 28 May 2009.

Jeffrey Lewis, “DF-21 Delta Confirmation,” Arms Control Wonk, 9 May 2009.

“ASBM – follow up,” Information Dissemination, 1 May 2009.

Andrew S. Erickson and David Yang, “On the Verge of a Game-Changer,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 135, No. 3 (May 2009), pp. 26-32.

Cdr. Paul S. Giarra, U.S. Navy (Ret.), “Watching the Chinese,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Vol. 135, No. 3 (May 2009).

“Near-Term BMD Defenses Against Chinese Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles Fitted with MaRVs,” Information Dissemination, 10 April 2009.

Sean O’Connor, “Dragon’s Fire: The PLA’s 2nd Artillery Corps,” IMINT & Analysis, 8 April 2009.

Martin Sieff, “Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles,” United Press International, 2 April 2009.

National Air and Space Intelligence Center, Ballistic and Cruise Missile Threat, (NASIC, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH, April 2009), NASIC-1031-0985-09.

“PLAN ASBM development,” Information Dissemination, 28 March 2009.

Office of the Secretary of Defense, Military Power of the People’s Republic of China 2009, Annual Report to Congress (Washington, DC: Department of Defense, 25 March 2009).

Robert M. Gates, “A Balanced Strategy: Reprogramming the Pentagon for a New Age,” Foreign Affairs, January/February 2009.

Sean O’Connor, “OTH Radar and the ASBM Threat,” Imint & Analysis, 11 November 2008.

Richard D. Fisher, China’s Military Modernization: Building for Regional and Global Reach (Westport: Praeger, 30 September 2008). See Chapter 6, p. 167.

Sam Roggeveen, “U.S. Reacts to China’s Carrier Killer,” The Interpreter, Lowy Institute for International Policy, 15 August 2008.

Bill Sweetman, “Navy Reacts to Missile Threats,” Ares: A Defense Technology Blog, Aviation Week, 14 August 2008.

Christopher P. Cavas, “Missile Threat Helped Drive DDG Cut: Zumwalt Class Could Not Down Chinese Weapons,” Defense News, 4 August 2008.

王伟 [Wang Wei], “战术弹道导弹对中国海洋战略体系的影响” [The Effect of Tactical Ballistic Missiles on the Maritime Strategy System of China], 舰载武器 [Shipborne Weapons], no. 84 (August 2006), pp. 12–15, reprinted as Danling Cacioppo, China Maritime Studies Institute (CMSI), trans., Naval War College Review 61, no. 3 (Summer 2008), pp. 133–40.

Wendell Minnick, “China Developing Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles,” Defense News, 14 January 2008.

Larry M. Wortzel, The People’s Liberation Army and Space Warfare: Emerging United States-China Military Competition (Washington, DC: American Enterprise Institute, 17 October 2007). See especially section on attacking an aircraft carrier and the role of space assets.

Larry M. Wortzel, “PLA Command, Control, and Targeting Architectures: Theory, Doctrine, and Warfighting Applications,” Chapter 5, pp. 191-235, in Andrew Scobell and Roy Kamphausen, eds., Right Sizing the People’s Liberation Army: Exploring the Contours of China’s Military (Carlisle, PA: U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute and National Bureau of Asian Research, 4 September 2007). See pp. 210-11 for discussion and Chinese sources on attacking moving aircraft carrier battle groups.

Richard Fisher, Jr., “New Asian Missiles Target the Greater Asian Region,” International Assessment and Strategy Center, 24 July 2007.

Larry M. Wortzel, China’s Nuclear Forces: Operations, Training, Doctrine, Command, Control and Campaign Planning (Carlisle, PA: U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute, 11 May 2007). See especially section on “Attacking Deployed Carrier Battle Groups,” pp. 12-14.

Cortez A. Cooper III, Statement Before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, “PLA Modernization in Traditional Warfare Capabilities” panel, “China’s Military Modernization and its Impact on the United States and the Asia-Pacific” hearing, Washington, DC, 29 March 2007.

Andrew S. Erickson, Statement Before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, “PLA Modernization in Traditional Warfare Capabilities” panel, “China’s Military Modernization and its Impact on the United States and the Asia-Pacific” hearing, Washington, DC, 29 March 2007, pp. 72-78."
 
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Martian

Senior Member
From ASAT to GBI and finally to ASBM. What don't you get?

Admiral Willard (testifying in front of Congress): China is testing her ASBM.

Scratch: You mean in a wind tunnel?

Orthan: Office of Naval Intelligence is "full of errors"/lying.

Are you guys for real?

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"Chinese Anti-Satellite [ASAT] Capabilities

On 17 January 2007 Craig Covault, writing in Aviation Week & Space Technology, reported that China conducted a successful anti-satellite (ASAT) weapons test at about 5:28 p.m. EST on 11 January 2007. A kinetic kill vehicle launched by a medium range ballistic missile destroyed an inactive Chinese weather satellite. The Chinese Feng Yun 1C (FY-1C) polar orbiting meterological satellite had been launched in 1999. The ASAT was launched from or near the Xichang Space Center, and intercepted the target at an altitude of variously reported as either 530 or 537 miles. This altitude is consistent with the operational altitudes of American and Japanese imagery intelligence satellites."

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"China: Missile defense system test successful

Posted 1/11/2010 8:08 PM

BEIJING (AP) — China announced that its military intercepted a missile in mid-flight Monday in a test of new technology that comes amid heightened tensions over Taiwan and increased willingness by the Asian giant to show off its advanced military capabilities.

The official Xinhua News Agency reported late Monday that "ground-based midcourse missile interception technology" was tested within Chinese territory.

"The test has achieved the expected objective," the three-sentence report said. "The test is defensive in nature and is not targeted at any country."
...
"We did not receive prior notification of the launch," Maj. Maureen Schumann, a Pentagon spokeswoman, said. "We detected two geographically separated missile launch events with an exo-atmospheric collision also being observed by space-based sensors. We are requesting information from China regarding the purpose for conducting this interception as well as China's intentions and plans to pursue future types of intercepts."

China's military is in the middle of a major technology upgrade, spurred on by double-digit annual percentage increases in defense spending. Missile technology is considered one of the People's Liberation Army's particular strengths, allowing it to narrow the gap with the U.S. and other militaries that wield stronger conventional forces.

Xinhua did not further identify the system tested, although China is believed to be pursuing a number of programs developed from anti-aircraft systems aimed at shooting down stealth aircraft and downing or disabling cruise missiles and precision-guided weapons.
...
"There is an obvious concern in Beijing that they need an effective anti-ballistic missile defense in some form," said Hans Kristensen, an expert on the Chinese military with the Federation of American Scientists.

Staging a successful test "shows that their technology is maturing," Kristensen said.
...
Monday's report continues a growing trend of greater transparency over China's new military technologies typified by last year's striking Oct. 1 military parade marking the 60th anniversary of the founding of the communist state. Large numbers of missiles were displayed in the show, including ICBMs, together with tanks, amphibious craft and latest-generation jet fighters.

China's anti-ship cruise and ballistic missiles — capable of striking U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups and bases in the Pacific — have drawn the most attention from analysts in recent months.

Military displays and announcements of successful tests help build public pride in the military's rising capabilities and bolster support for rising defense spending that increased by almost 15% last year to $71 billion. The figure is thought by many analysts to represent only a portion of total defense spending, although it still amounts to only a fraction of the U.S. military budget.

Meanwhile, showing off such capabilities also helps put adversaries on notice, Kristensen said.

"It's the new Chinese way to signal that they are now able to do these things," he said.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed."
 
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Scratch

Captain
Re: From ASAT to GBI and finally to ASBM. What don't you get?

Are you guys for real?

Dude, relax, once again, I do not doubt PLAs competance and capabilities in missile technology, I know of both the ASAT and the BMD test, yet, once more you do not provide a referance that an at sea flight test of a BM hitting a test ship at sea has taken place. And it doesn't matter if China doesn't have an aircraft carrier, any floting thing big enough can be used.
You know, the funny thing I want to allude to: After all the BMD tests the US has conducted, many of wich succesfull, a single mishap is used as a reason why the system is flawed, the test targets are said to have secret homing devices to help the anti-missile, and all kinds of problems like decoys, countermessures etc are brought up to invalidate the system.
Yet, after one succefull ASAT and BMD test, and an alleged ASBM test, PLA is believed to have operational and capable ASAT, BMD and ASBM systems in place that are immune to ECM, decoying etc.
In the end since we're all more or less human, you're most likely just as biased as you accuse "us" of being. :)
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
They have to test this thing at sea. You cannot replicate testing against a moving target with testing against a fixed target. Besides testing in sea is different from testing in land, due to atmospheric conditions. To simply say "I don't know how they do it" its not an explanation.

As for ONI, they made a report about PLAN which acording to tphuang and others is full of errors, and if what he says is true, IMO that raises a lot of questions about ONI´s competence regarding PLAN.

As for Adm. Willard, well, he is interested in congress forking out money to the navy, which is the least useful branch of the military against the war on terror (al-queida doesnt have navy)

Are you telling me that Admiral Willard is telling lie? Do you realized that telling lie infront of congressional hearing is perjury under the law.

It is one thing leaking information in front of press but definitely serious matter when you testify in front of congress

Anyway MARV is an old technology the US pioneer it with Pershing II Missile in 80's So nothing new here US stop developing the technology because it was banned under INF treaty.

U.S. Technological Influence?
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The United States does not have an ASBM. It did have a distantly related capability, in the form of the Pershing II ground-to-ground theater-ballistic missile, but Washington relinquished this capability when it ratified the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty with Moscow in 1988. Interestingly, some Chinese sources state that previous advances in the now-abandoned Pershing II program inspired Chinese research and development relevant to an ASBM [2]. The Pershing II has adjustable second stage control fins for terminal maneuver. U.S. Government sources, and many Chinese sources, state that a Chinese ASBM would be based on the CSS-5. While positively identified photos of a CSS-5 outside its launch canister are not known to exist, at least one version of China’s related CSS-6/DF-15 missile has a reentry vehicle virtually identical in appearance to the Pershing II’s [3]. Based on this strong visual resemblance, it is possible that the CSS-6 employs terminal maneuvering technology similar to that of the Pershing II, and it is reasonable to assume that the CSS-5 does too. This is because the reentry vehicle that China obviously has could easily be mated with the CSS-5 booster, which might then produce an effective ASBM, assuming that its radar has the ability to track moving targets at sea.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: From ASAT to GBI and finally to ASBM. What don't you get?

You know, the funny thing I want to allude to: After all the BMD tests the US has conducted, many of wich succesfull, a single mishap is used as a reason why the system is flawed, the test targets are said to have secret homing devices to help the anti-missile, and all kinds of problems like decoys, countermessures etc are brought up to invalidate the system.
Yet, after one succefull ASAT and BMD test, and an alleged ASBM test, PLA is believed to have operational and capable ASAT, BMD and ASBM systems in place that are immune to ECM, decoying etc.
In the end since we're all more or less human, you're most likely just as biased as you accuse "us" of being. :)

Which one are you talking about there are different layer of BMD . There are boost phase, Mid phase, Terminal Phase.

The terminal phase run by both Army with their THAAD and Navy modified Aegis system.

Ther terminal phase is the one that is vulnerable to different counter measure see this wikipedia stat of failure and success trial
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But as far as I know the mids phase are hard to fool and US and China are the only country that mastered the technology of mid phase destruction

So you are talking 2 different thing here
 

Orthan

Senior Member
Hey martian, you know what? you can get quoted on your posts all the PLAN reports made in US (coming from neocons and not). But without clear evidence (credible photos, test reports) this is all AFAIK, a pile of BS.

Do you remember Iraq and its WMD? the USA even went to war because of them, and in the end? nowhere to be found. Dont take the word of the military intelligence for granted.

Iam not saying that Adm Willard is lying. Just saying he could well be wrong.

Regarding PLAN, we can only believe what we see not what we read or hear.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Hey martian, you know what? you can get quoted on your posts all the PLAN reports made in US (coming from neocons and not). But without clear evidence (credible photos, test reports) this is all AFAIK, a pile of BS.

Do you remember Iraq and its WMD? the USA even went to war because of them, and in the end? nowhere to be found. Dont take the word of the military intelligence for granted.

Iam not saying that Adm Willard is lying. Just saying he could well be wrong.

Regarding PLAN, we can only believe what we see not what we read or hear.

You are free to believe or not to believe that is your personal opinion. But it doesn't meant ASBM doesn't exist!

At the level of Admiral Willard he doesn't just blurted statement without any justification specially in front of congress!
 

Scratch

Captain
The terminal phase run by both Army with their THAAD and Navy modified Aegis system.
I'm pretty sure both are run by the Missile Defence Agency, and not the Army or Navy.

The terminal phase is the one that is vulnerable to different counter measures, see this wikipedia stat of failure and success trial
Pretty rough R&D phase, after wich they got rid of the problems and entered a pretty solid Engineering and Manufacturing phase. So according to your link, THAAD is now a highly reliable system since the Manufacturing phase with a 100% succes rate, correct?

But as far as I know the mid phase are hard to fool and US and China are the only country that mastered the technology of mid phase destruction
So mid phase destruction is the one that is a rather safe bet once one mastered that technology? Funny you say that, because Martian used a failure on just such a mid phase intercept test to lable the US system as highly unreliable and experimantal.

And once again, I do not believe China is unable to develop a BM with a MaRV that can perhaps even track an object on the ocean.
I just find it unreasonable to believe the ASBM will be a reliable game changer in a few years under full up wartime conditions when there's not been a single test of a missile hitting a floating anything on the ocean under peacetime conditions in a test environment.
 
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