PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by Sczepan, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. tphuang
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    The radar are definitely all produced by the 14th institute. It's the same company that developed radar for all the Chinese fighters and also the PAR or APAR radar on 052C. I believe China did not think A50I by the Russians was good enough. I think the Russian AWACS required a ground station or something like that?
     
  2. MIGleader
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    MIGleader Banned Idiot

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    russian radars suck. its a fact, not an opinion. and china has exceeded them. to bad china didnt get the phalcon...

    does anyone know
    is the radar on the second kj-2000 superior to the one on the original?

    the balance beam looks as if it were based on argus ericsson eirye tech, but we should never make that kind of assumption. the a-501s Vega Shmel-M radar has less range than a sentry, although it can discrimate targets against ground clutter better. but it only trakcs 50-60 targets, as opposed to a phalcon, which had a 250 km range, and could track 60-100 targets.
     
  3. adeptitus
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    Here's some AWCS specs:
    www.beriev.com/eng/A-50E_e/A-50E_e.html
    www.spyflight.co.uk/phalcon.htm
    www.spyflight.co.uk/737aewc.htm
    www.spyflight.co.uk/IVSP.htm
    www.globalsecurity.org/milit...e-737-specs.htm
    www.globalsecurity.org/milit.../c-37-specs.htm

    A disucssion on AWACS:
    http://translate.google.com/transla...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

    I wouldn't pay too much attention to the manufacturer's claim on detection ranges, they're usually overstated and does not represent realistic battlefield conditions.

    Russian AWACS have a bad rep from high noise levels and lack of toilet facilities. I hope they install a toilet on the KJ-2000. =p
     
  4. tphuang
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    Let's not forget, the Russian AWACS are not using phased array radar. It still uses a rotating PD radar. Anyhow, it's clear from the actions of both PLAAF and IAF, that they don't think much of the radar on the A50.

    The article said that the radar on A50 is twice the mass of the radar on Sentry, but the detection range is actually the same.


    Editted: interesting stuff for Y-8

    巨泻:Y8系列工程载机
    摘自 鼎盛王朝 考古 2005-12-02 20:26
    http://top.jschina.com.cn/bbs/ccb/index.cgi
    Y8J 有4架(其中9281#改自Y8X)
    Y8平衡木 生产型已有1架

    Y8-J is the one fitted with the skymaster radar, there are 4 of those
    Y-8 balance beam, said there is one production type.

    高薪一号:运8电子情报鸡。(估计是20110#那架)
    Y-8 ECM
    高薪二号:运8电子干扰鸡(估计是海军9351#)
    Y-8 ELINT
    高薪三号:运8预警机(磨菇头),2003年9月首飞
    Y-8 AWACS with rotodome?
    高薪四号:运8空中指挥鸡(EP3C版)
    Y-8 C3I


    similar to that one, but more detailed:

    该文或许有利于大家理解最近搞得沸沸扬扬的Y8平衡木图片。原文今年5月14日发表在超大。本文系在该文在原文基础上进行多处修改、增补而成(

    2004年6月13日,星期日第三次修改稿)。

    欲谈中航二集团预警机,首先必须谈陕飞集团。

    运8是陕飞的独子,陕飞的所有飞机系列都是在运8基础上衍生出来的。这种1969年开始研制、1980年正式设计定型的运输机是国内运输能力最大的中型运输机。其最大起飞重量为61吨,最大载重20吨。在此基础上运8又衍生出了诸如海上巡逻机、黑鹰直升机载机、民用型机、出口型机、无人机母机、民用货运机、气密型机、航测机、邮政机、“515工程”等三大系列 10余种机型。目前国内的特种飞机大多为该公司研制。由于需求量有限,每一种飞机机型的产量都少得可怜。从运8正式定型至今所有机型的总产量不超过100架。所以我们才能够看到陕飞2003年“一机立项、两机新研、三机改装、两机首飞、四机预研”的壮观景象。这里除了运8F600、运8-X型机,和正在设计的一种全新中型运输机—运8U以外,我们对其他机型一无所知。但是未知型号至少会包括一种陕飞人称之为“生命工程” 的高新工程计划,据称其关系到陕飞集团未来的生存与发展。2003年一则新闻说陕飞的该重点工程是“一项战略性任务,更重要的是一项政治任务,国家对中航二集团已经下了死命令!”可见意义确实非同小可!机型决不是以前从事过的普通机型!当然国家也不是只提供压力,从先后在陕飞投人了数亿元人民币搞条件建设看国家对此项目也非常重视。中国航空报2003年的新闻明确提到“预警机”。但更多时候只以“高新工程”称呼。在汇集了更多的资料后方知预警机只是高新工程的一个部分而已。

    高新工程分为有多个型号。按照《简氏防务周刊》在2003年8月一期的的说法,目前一共有4个。

    1、高新一号:运8电子情报机,有2架在空军服役,主要负责在东南沿海收集电子情报
    This should be Y-8 ELINT/SIGINT plane, it says 2 are in service
    2、高新二号:新运8预警机,明年服役(指2004年)
    This should be the new Y-8 AWACS
    3、高新三号:运8电子干扰机,共10架在生产中,干扰L、C、和S波段
    This should be the Y-8 ECM, 10 in production, disrupts L, C, S bands
    4、高新四号:运8空中指挥机,方案论证已完成。
    This should be the Y-8 C3I.

    The above is according to JDW.
    There could be as many as 6 types of Y-8 EW planes.
    但是有消息称,型号已经到了6号甚至更多,但是作为外界人我们无从知道真相。不过陕飞的新闻多次提到,陕飞“多项重点工程项目陆续上马”“随着国家军事战略结构调整,陕飞集团承担的重点型号研制任务越来越多”,这些字眼也验证了陕飞的确存在着多个“高新工程”型号。
    It says the "high new" project started in 2001 and signed a detail with PLAN for 3 Y8C balance beam test bed. In november, Y-8 balance beam was a success.
    根据陕飞的“大事记”,“高新工程”型号研制于2001年2月通过技术鉴定审查,2001年9月29日,陕飞与海军签订了3架运8C “平衡木”验证机载机合同。11月8日,运8 “平衡木”也即高新工程一号首飞成功,说明前期工作早就在进行之中。12月22日,“高新二号工程”又首飞成功。由专家组组织的评审结论认为,“运8C“平衡木”验证机载机基本符合任务系统装机和验证试飞的要求,可以转入下一阶段研制”。这说明,陕飞至少有两项重点工程载机工程。新闻也证实,2001年陕飞有两种特种专业飞机成功首飞。2000年陕飞“高新一号工程”研制获科技进步一等奖; “高新一号工程鉴定试飞”、“运8‘515’工程APU系统设计” 获二等奖。说明型号性能还是令人满意的。

    这两架2001年交付的运八特种飞机正在在空军某试验基地大密集度试飞,累计飞行已达1018个小时,1870个起落。按迄今40个月计算,平均达到每一个月47个起落,25个多小时。目前估计已经接近尾声或者试飞项目全部结束,入役是近期的事情。

    高新三号于2003年8月26日首飞成功。最新的高新四号将于近期内首飞。我在新闻里发现今年将要首飞的这个高新工程带有专门的"卫星通讯天线罩",目前已经完成了静力试验。一般的飞机应该不会有专门的"卫星通讯天线罩",这说明飞机可以进行天-空-地一体化的通讯!!这也与简氏提到的空中指挥机方案相符合。这个方案应该类似美国的E8空中指挥机。

    “高新工程”型号总设计师是丁重舜,目前在互联网上找不到关于该总师的任何信息。首席试飞员则是著名的试飞英雄邹延龄。试飞中的一大特点是有许多次飞行每次时间都在5个小时以上,而不是传统的1比1试飞. “高新一号工程”首架样机科研试飞先后进行了平台调查试飞和任务系统试飞,历时近5个月,共飞行37架次,累计飞行81小时而胜利结束。
    AVIC2 mentionned that Y-8 AWACS could be used for navy, but it's weight is 2.5 times that of E-2C and even Y-7 is larger than E-2C, only Y-12 seems to fit the carrier AWACS description.
    值得一提的是,我在“从AVIC2新闻解读二集团的预警机项目”中提出该预警机有可能是用于海军的“大平台”项目,经过仔细核查飞机数据,发现我实在是错得离谱!实际上运8比美国航母的预警机E-2C“鹰眼”大得多,其最大起飞重量竟是后者的2.5倍,连运7也比E-2C大不小。目前,从大小分析,运12 似乎最可能适合用于航母舰载机,但是其结构根本不能满足弹射和抵抗海上高盐雾、高湿的侵袭的要求,当然如果将运七进行专门的修改,上舰也不是不可能,而且西飞有一款运七是专门设计的长航程飞机1999年12月25日首飞上天,留空时间长达10个小时,在相关的新闻里也提到可以作为预警机之用。不知道我们是否的确有类似的计划。

    Recently, Lab14 also designed rotodome radar similar to the one on IL76 (KJ-2000's radar). The first is balance beam, uses three antennas, A, B and C. A is 4.88 m.
    目前所知一号的预警机不同于南京14所在IL76基础上研制的带旋转天线圆盘的预警机,因为前者是平衡木样式的。可见二者的雷达系统显著不同。“平衡木” 运8带有3个天线罩,分别是A罩、B罩和C罩,其中A罩长达4米88,有一则新闻里提到的“重点工程飞机雷达罩B罩”就是其中之一。陕飞小有名气的段正才正是因为圆满解决了这三个雷达罩的研制工艺方案才获得了“十大杰出青年”称号。
    Not sure if the rotodome Y-8 is also part of the "high new" project. Maybe there are two types, one balance beam and one rotodome, seems like a little bit of a waste. Maybe one is for the airforce and one is for the navy.
    曾经在网上看到一幅运8带有旋转圆盘的飞机模型和一架装有旋转圆盘的飞机实物,不过不知道是不是“高新工程”之一。也有一种可能就是一号是平衡木的,二号是圆盘的。但是这样似乎是一种浪费,我更倾向于二者是两种不同性能的计划,如果说二者分别是为空军和海军研制,也不是不可能的(毕竟,大事记里多次提到空军和海军非常重视高新工程)。当然实验性的进行比较(主要是雷达性能)二者的优缺点也未尝不可。现在据说“高新工程”是平衡木和圆盘都有。
    Y-8 is used because it's much cheaper and we can pretty much test any radar on it.
    既然我们都已经看到了目前正在南京试飞的大预,那么二集团为什么还要研制另一个型号的预警机呢?目前还不知道真实原因,但其原因可能有两个:一个是为了省钱,毕竟运8是自己的平台,比起IL76来便宜得多。其二可能是为了测试不同的雷达体系对作战的要求。

    今年5月13日中航二集团的新闻中曾提到“运八飞机中段天线舱”,在另一则陕飞集团董事长兼总经理胡晓峰走访01基地的新闻里,我们能看到在运8内部有几个很舒适的座椅与飞机竖轴平行排列,说明设备就在沿着机舱方向排列,这也与预警机的配置相符。

    总之,二集团至少有一款是属于使用“平衡木”的预警机计划以及其他的高新工程项目。该计划将进一步促进我天朝的预警和指挥体系发展。
     
  5. muyang523
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    muyang523 New Member

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    Y-8 command post
    [​IMG]

    Rumored Boeing 737 command post
    [​IMG]

    I have a question, what do command post do?
     
  6. tphuang
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    Command post, I guess it's basically where the general sit and get closer to the line of action?

    Anyhow, here is an article on Y-8X. Looks like the MPA, I'm not sure.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. MIGleader
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    MIGleader Banned Idiot

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  8. tphuang
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    Yeah, I was a little confused about that. The picture looked like Y-8j with that huge nose, but the article made no mention of the skymaster radar or the fact that we got it from UK. And Y-8X is the code that huitong used for mpa.

    Shoot, reread the article again, I got the Y-8X part mixed up. Yeah, it has to be Y-8J.
     
  9. sumdud
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    There are so many EW variants of the Y-8, it gets soooo confusing. X_X
    It'll be nice though if all the variants of the Y-8 flew in formation and a picture was taken. :)

    But as for AWACS
    The Y-8J isn't bad for a start. And I would guess it is safer to have the radar on your nose than on your back connected with three sticks.
    The plane is good, but
    and
    Doesn't match up. Maybe it's a typo? Or I am missing out on some math? :confused:

    Maybe it will work with the command posts? (1 AWACS= 1 AEW+ 1 Command post, right? Expect you have a team instead of a colonel on the chair.)
    It somehow seems to be a waste to scrap it now.
    China is definitely not going to make much KJ-2000. That'll sacrifice too much Il-76s and worn down the logistics movement.
    We can get a lot of Y-8 AWACS, but they really have a giant loophole if the beam covers only the front and back 120 degrees. :\
     
  10. slackpiv
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    my biggest question to the designers of the kj-2000 is why house the radar in a dome. Why not do what the israelis with the falcons? It reduces sooooo much drag on the plane.
     

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