Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

b787

Captain
True, but I need to private message to our SDF members b787 and apologize for being mean to him.
do not worry, i am not sensible, my position is aircraft design is a balance you loose in some areas to gain in others, pakfa is designed balancing stealth and performance upon the Russian philosophy of design, rounded surfaces are not inherently not stealthy,upon some traits and conditions they are stealthy, but flat surfaces minimize the angular section detectability,

to declare an aircraft better than other is very hard, first because many factors affect air combat, f-35, focuses in sensor integration, while f-22 in raw performance, victory is granted to the pilot that uses better his aircraft strong points, while exploiting to the maximum his adversaries weaknesses.

take for example mig-29 in the 1990s was the best dogfighter in the world, but f-15s downed it over the Balkans, the answer is the fulcrum was the best dogfighter but not the best bvr fighter, f-15 was better in long range, add the advantage in numbers and support, you will understand why the f-15 was better.

pakfa philosophy is performance and stealth are balanced upon what the Russians think air combat will be.

predictions can be wrong, take for example the f-4 versus mig-17 in Vietnam, the f-4 was downed sometimes by older aircraft because bvr missiles failed most of the time.

if stealth aircraft ever go to war,then you ẃill know which one is better, but only after many years, once you consider the whole picture, today you can know the advantages of the p-51 over the me-109 but also disadvantages even considering the different variants each aircraft has
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b787

Captain
PAK-FA's New Engines Make It 'Easily the Best 5th Gen Fighter in the World'
© Sputnik/ Maksim Blinov
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19:49 25.07.2017(updated 22:36 25.07.2017)Get short URL
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9592473
Independent military observer Vladimir Tuchkov outlines why the T-50 PAK-FA fighter's new, truly fifth-gen engines are set to turn the aircraft into easily the best fifth generation fighter aircraft in the world.

Last week, speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the MAKS-2017 air show, Russian Aerospace Defense Forces Commander Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev
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that the first stage of state testing on the T-50 (PAK-FA) fifth generation stealth air superiority fighter have been completed, and that the first flight tests would be finished before the end of the year.

Trials will continue into 2018, and mass production of the T-50 for introduction into the air force is slated to begin in 2019.




© SPUTNIK/ DMITRY VINOGRADOV
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One of major obstacles widely reported to have held the T-50 back from production in the past was the absence of a true fifth-generation engine for the aircraft, with prototypes of the aircraft using a derivative of the AL-41F1 engine, similar to the one used in the Sukhoi Su-35S 4++ generation multirole fighter.


But now, Russian designers are on the brink of reaching a breakthrough on a totally new, truly fifth-gen engine, known as Izdeliye 30 (Product 30), a design which experts say has no equivalents in the world of engine construction.

Developed from scratch over the course of almost a decade at the Saturn Tool-Making Plant in Rybinsk, central Russia, Izdeliye 30 features improved thrust characteristics (19,000 kgf vs. 15,000 kgf in the AL-41F1), better fuel efficiency, fewer moving parts, and subsequently improved reliability and lower maintenance costs.

Ground tests for the engine have already been completed. Now, following its installation aboard the T-50, the second stage of testing, both for the engine and the plane, can begin. This process is expected to start
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.



Commenting on the significance of this development, military journalist and Svobodnaya Pressa contributor Vladimir Tuchkov
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that the long-awaited pairing of the T-50 with a fifth-generation engine will be a milestone, one giving Russia not only a true next generation fighter aircraft, but undoubtedly the best plane of its kind in the world.

For starters, the analyst noted, "in terms of maneuverability, the T-50 is second-to-none. This was predestined by the design of its airframe," as well as the plane's three dimensional thrust vector jets, a design which the US does not have.

The F-22 Raptor, for example, uses two-dimensional vector thrust jets, affecting only its pitch, for maneuverability. The F-35 Lightning II lacks the capability altogether, except for its vertical take-off and landing functions. No information is available regarding China's J-20 stealth fighter.


© SPUTNIK/ VLADIMIR ASTAPKOVICH
T-50 jet performs a demo flight at the MAKS 2015 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky outside Moscow
In the stealth department, the T-50's radar cross section (rcs) value is 0.1-0.5m, significantly higher than the F-22 and the F-35 (whose values are an impressive 0.0001 and 0.0015).

However, Tuchkov emphasized that the rcs indicators are "a subject wide open to conjecture, based on disinformation provided either by developers for advertising purposes…or for the purpose of disorienting the enemy (so that he cannot predict in advance the tactics of air battles and interception by air defense forces)."




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Military observers have long said and written that among the major military powers (and sometimes even among smaller ones) the
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to stealth technology have a tendency to be conceived of, designed and deployed long before stealth fighters ever get off the ground. Furthermore, the engines onboard every stealth aircraft give off thermal signatures which infrared sensor systems (including those used by Russia) could easily
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. Finally, Russia also has over-the-horizon surface-wave radar systems
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of detecting stealth jets "as clearly as WWII-era aircraft."


In other words, while the idea of a magic plane invisible to enemy air defenses may be relevant when fighting small countries with Cold War-era radar and air defense technology, in combat with larger powers, other factors, including a plane's target detection systems, as well as its range of their missiles, are far more significant.

In the first area, Tuchkov noted that T-50's delayed start behind both the F-22 and the F-35 worked out perfectly for the developers of the plane's onboard radar systems, giving them access to fundamentally new electronic components and technologies which were unavailable ten or even five years before. "Furthermore, Russian designers were able to take into account, as far as possible, the experience of the F-22's radar," the journalist wrote.

“First, it must be said that the angle of the T-50's active phased array is installed on an incline. Because of this, the aircraft's rcs is reduced. Going with this design, which also makes possible a reduction in power usage during operation, was made possible thanks to the excellent characteristics of the N036 Belka radar, developed to replace the N035 Irbis passive phased array antenna system.”


© PHOTO: ALLOCER
N036 Belka advanced active electronically scanned array radar system
The N036 is more effective than the N035, Tuchkov noted, but even the earlier system “remains very convincing when compared with the US AN/APG-77 radar. The Russian system finds targets with an rcs of 1 square meter at distances up to 300 km. The American radar, meanwhile, does the same up to 225 km. For targets with an rcs of 0.01 square meters, the Russian radar’s range is 90 km. For the US system these figures are not available.”

Altogether, the T-50 has six radars onboard – including one on the plane’s nose, two on its sides, two on the wings and one in the aft section. They are capable of monitoring up to 60 targets at once, and targeting up to 15.

“In addition to the radar-based visibility, the T-50 features the OLS-50M optic-electronic sensor system, which includes a thermal scanner using a QWIP-matrix with unique resolution and range characteristics. In this area…Russia is considered to be the absolute world leader,” the military observer stressed. A similar system, which enables the pilot to detect targets which have their radar systems turned off, is fitted on the F-35, albeit the US design has a smaller range. The F-22 does not have this technology.




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If there is one advantage of the F-35’s avionics to speak of, “it is the pilot’s helmet, which makes the aircraft ‘transparent,’" Tuchkov wrote. "That is, visibility is not limited by the cockpit windows. The whole panorama of the surrounding area is displayed in the pilot’s visors, in both the visible and the infrared spectrum. Monitoring the pilot’s head and eye movements, the computer provides the necessary panoramic viewpoint and provides the pilots with tips, and manages targeting.”


Finally, and perhaps most importantly, when it comes to armaments, here the T-50 stands out, according to the observer.

Among all the world's existing and prospective fifth-generation fighter aircraft, “the T-50 has the most extensive missile and bomb arsenal. A total of 14 high-precision missiles and smart bombs have been developed specifically for the plane. Half have already been adopted into service; the other half are undergoing testing. The KS-172, the longest-range air-to-air missile, has a maximum range up to 400 km. This is double that of the US AIM-120D missile, which has a maximum range of 180 km."


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The KS-172 air-to-air missile
As for air-to-surface missiles, here too the T-50 has systems that are “at the forefront of engineering solutions,” Tuchkov noted. “Using them, the pilot has the opportunity to conduct a 'free hunt', with the missiles themselves choosing targets independently. The US planes, meanwhile, use missiles developed in the early 2000s, and modernized in the 2010s in the best case scenario.”


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b787

Captain
"Ground tests for the engine have already been completed. Now, following its installation aboard the T-50, the second stage of testing, both for the engine and the plane, can begin."

Very nice but don't they need to try it mounted to an IL-76 or something first?
i think some engines are tested on their intended aircraft right away but i could be wrong
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I don't think PAKFA can be the "best 5th gen jet" when Russia can only afford to build 24 units of it.

It just speaks to how much money Russia is able to spend on R&D on PAKFA and the resultant quality of the plane.

Basically, how can a dead broke Russia that can only afford 24 units build the "best" in its class warbird... Nope!
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Whether the PAK-FA is the best or not, can and will only be proven when in combat. The same goes for F-22s, F-35s, J-20s or the FC-31s. It's not just the aircraft which proves itself over the rest, rather the pilot flying it and their opponent and his/her aircraft.

Sanctions cannot stop Russia from moving forward, it has merely slowed it down. Be it Su-50 Stealth Fighter, Lider Class Destroyers or any other defense program, the Russians will eventually find a way forward.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Whether the PAK-FA is the best or not, can and will only be proven when in combat. The same goes for F-22s, F-35s, J-20s or the FC-31s. It's not just the aircraft which proves itself over the rest, rather the pilot flying it and their opponent and his/her aircraft.

.
Very capable for sure but he have a weakness reactors are only half masked not gool for stealth
coz he is very flat and not enough room for hide engines
It's not about feeling "insecure" I'm just stating the obvious how China had advanced so much and so far. The general consensus among the opinions of writers, readers, and experts from the West and in Russia is that China can NEVER catch up to them in technology due to culture and politics. Now that the rooster came home to roost and reality hits the fan, some members here just couldn't face the music.



Not much of a teacher than, and now the teacher that over looks the student will be the one learning the lessons of humbleness. I'm just saying bro.

It is not the general consensus or in Tabloids or similars sure not in serious Military Magazines even French i read never see main reasons are China is new in this " top club " added to the opacity they provide very few infos after some Chinese people are very " delicate "
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
China and the Soviet Union have not always enjoyed friendly relations. However, that is unrelated to this topic and it does not change the fact that China's aerospace sector would not be where it is today without Russia.

Exactly, and with the American left, and by extension the main-stream media? turned whole hog to vilifying both Russia in particular, and China as an afterthought,,, this is breaking down what should be a "tri-lateral" partnership working for free trade and a stronger stand against terror and economic ruin. I'm sure that Trump and Putin and Xi, could assemble a "working relationship", that would encourage freedom, and bring some semblance of stability back to our world?

The left is so "bent" on Trump failing, that they seemingly have no concern for our country? (the US) thereby forcing China and Russia to form a bilateral alliance against the US.... and don't be surprised if in this "new reality", that Russia offers China the T-50, just as they have sold them the SU-35, as an interim "force multiplier" against the West!

Look how many Sukhoi licensed aircraft China is still flying today??? really take a look,,, Shenyang is building Flankers! remember, a Flanker is a Flanker, is a Flanker! The T-50 is simply an extension of the Flanker sweetness, and it is a serious threat, particularly if funded and built in numbers!

So discount Russia and China's trust and friendship at your own risk?? and Mangi, you are exactly right, China has been very shrewd in this whole little cat and mouse game, and they are going to come out on top of the pile, if people on both sides of the isle don't get their krap together!
 
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