Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

tphuang

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zyun8288 said:
Personally, I still don't think 054A is a good one to be mass produced. It's too big and too expensive to be a coastal defense ship, yet it's still bit small to go highseas for long duration missions accompanying a large combat group of ships.

If the rumored 1800 ton advanced light frigate project does materialise, combined with Type 22, coastal defense task will be handled nicely and economically and 054's role will be awakard.

That's why I am only interested in the general purpose VLS system. :rofl:

It's true sooner or later, china will start to mass produce a version of 052 and 054, but will it be 052D and 054A? I just have feeling there will be a 054B soon.:rofl:
054A is still smaller than F-124. Do you know how much it cost? 052B is 300 million each, do you think 054A can be that expensive? probably 250 million? still much cheaper than the 750 million+ price tag of 052C and 051C. It's definitely not too small for long duration mission. It's going to be as large as Luhu class DDG and Luhu is having no problem sailing to US.

Why would China need 1800 tonne light frigate? The reason why Type 22 was created was because China needed a fast and effective missile launcher that can be mass produced really fast. In a war against USN, how long do you think China's large surface fleet can survive? If you can produce 10 FACs in some inland shipyard in a few months, then that's better than not being able to produce more complex ships in larger shipyards.

Also, we haven't seen the photos of 054 for a long time. Apparently they went back to the ports. For what? Most likely refitting whatever they are going to put on 054A. If they do, that would already be 6 ships at 054A standard.
 

Finn McCool

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Re: Next generation Japanese destroyers

adeptitus said:
I'm inclined to think the Europeans still have indigenous capability. i.e. MBDA, SNECMA, Dassault, Saab, BAE Systems, Finmeccanica, Iveco/Oto Melara, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, Rheinmetall, GIAT, etc. The Leopard MBT still out-sells the M1 on world market, though I won't blame the US for any failures in this due to Germany's superior reputation in tank building -- heck, even Poland buys Leopard 2A4's.

Okay, maybe I should rephrase what I said as the world having NATO and Warsaw Pact weapons. That would make more sense.
 

chicket9

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One also should consider China's military spending. Sure, of course what the government states may not be true, in fact PLA might be spending 2-3 times more than stated. But one thing PLA, especially PLAN, doesn't have the luxury of is a high budget as Japan and USA has.

Japan can virtually afford anything. Though it spends only 1% of GDP on defence, that is quite substantial. PLA is huge, spending even so much money will only dent so much in upgrading the entire force, so you'd be left with obsolete equipment.

Yes I agree that with Japanese-US tech/military transfers, they will always maintain the cutting edge in military technology. Judging from that new destroyer picture however, I don't think this baby will be as comparable as US DD(X). US DD(X) is absolute cream of the force. But this Japanese 'wave piercer' seems more similar in appearance to e British Type 45 class AAW destroyers. The British Type 45 is not bad, in fact, boasted as the worlds current most advanced and also most crew-comforting combat vessel built in Europe, if not the world. So I think Japan's new DD program will be as good as US DD(X) in terms of electronics/command, but in terms of weapons capabilities and radar, more on the lines of British Type 45.

Yes China can always 'speed up' and influx more money into its defence. But rather than criticising it and urging more upgrades, shouldn't we be pleased with how far PLAN is upgrading? I mean, back in 1990-2000, there was no way near such naval development. Jiangwei II was about the only real building programme, and Luhu and Luhai never took off. Only one Song prototpye was completed, and even so that sucked majorly, and China only bought 2 Sovremennys and 4 Kilos.

Now look at 2000-2008. I am not sure if 054A would be built to '20' as much. But at least in these 8 years, we have/will see:

2 Type 052B
2 Type 051C
2 Type 052C
8-10 Song 039
various numbers of improved Mings
2 Yuans
8 Kilos
2 Sovremenny Improved
1 Type 071
4 Type 054A
2 Type 054
2-4 additional Jiangwei II
8-12 Type 022 FAC
2x new mine warfare ship classes
10 (if not more) Yuting III improved
10 (if not more) new LCM class
1 new weapons testing platform
2 new fleet replenishment ships
24 Su-30MK2
New tanks/APCs for Marines
Acquisition of 5-6 new types of missiles (YJ-83, YJ-62, SA-N-6, HQ-9, SA-N-12, Klub SLCM)

That is a heck of a lot of new boats coming out, not to mention upgrades to other areas of the Navy. In these 8 years between 2000-2008, we can be quite pleased with how fast PLAN growing and upgrading. Sure it is not large enough to replace the whole obsolete force, as 2/3 of the PLAN is still using the older destroyers/frigates (though their comms and electronics have been somewhat upgraded). But to any admiral/political analyst/military analyst, this is the largest naval building programme only second to the US.

Sure the PLAN maybe 20 years behind in terms of US AEGIS and somewhat decades behind until a quantity of carriers can be seen. But the point is, PLAN has come a long way considering its capabilities were quite negligible back before 2000.

Even so, hasn't AEGIS or AEGIS-type ships only really taken off outside the US only recently?
If you do not count US and Japan, PLAN is really in the same situation as many European and Asian navies in their acquisition of AAW ships.
Only recently has the British Type 045 been launched, the Korean KDXIII programme taken off, that European navies have begun to acquire AAW frigates/destroyers, and the Australians have funded an AAW vessel, and India has started a much-upgraded New Delhi class destroyer configured for AAW.

The only success story in Europe so far is the Dutch De Zeven class, of which 4 are operated.

Of course, most of the western nations acquiring these AAW ships have benefit of US collaboration, but it will take years for these new ships to be properly incorporated into these navies in quantity. Same situation as PLAN. Quite bold of PLAN to actually go an extra mile and test two AAW designs.

As Japan focuses on being defensive, I think PLAN should too...
I don't mean defensive as in always taking a defensive stance and not project power beyond territorial waters. But I mean, PLAN should work up a defensive capability which would... 1) be more than enough to hold off, and even sufficiently damage 4 US carrier battle groups in a regional war
, and 2) adequately counter modern SSNs/SSKs as well as mine warfare.


As for 1800 tonne frigates, I say screw that. I mean, the US Navy for example, used quite large OH Perry class, without a corvette sized ship, and even the Pegasus FAC was scrapped in the end. Yet no one saw US as weak, just because it had no littoral craft (though I acknowledge USA is developing the Littoral Combat Ship, but that replaces Perry).

1800 tonne ships are good for high budget but tiny navies, especially in the Middle East and South East Asia. But for a sea going fleet like China, i think the interest for now is to acquire a balanced frigate platform, which the 054A meets. It is ocean going and can fulfill quite a few missions. For now, the coastal defense 'frigate' role can be fulfilled by large numbers of Jianghus, and China has more than enough FAC and aircraft to shoot up anything on its coastline.

France and Russia used small frigates, as two classically large navies that used coastal defense frigates. Eg, th Russians have their Grishas, and the French have their D'Estienne D'Orves (Type A 69) class, but these frigates absolutely suck if they were confronted by aircraft or anything with SSMs, as they lacked adequate air defense or anti-ship capabilities to meet any true threat. So for a coastal defense ship, you'd have to cram SAM, CIWS, torpedoes, SSM, guns, all in a small platform which only has limited ocean going capabilities...I might as well save money and go for one frigate class.
 
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Jeff Head

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chicket9 said:
That is a heck of a lot of new boats coming out, not to mention upgrades to other areas of the Navy. In these 8 years between 2000-2008, we can be quite pleased with how fast PLAN growing and upgrading. Sure it is not large enough to replace the whole obsolete force, as 2/3 of the PLAN is still using the older destroyers/frigates (though their comms and electronics have been somewhat upgraded). But to any admiral/political analyst/military analyst, this is the largest naval building programme only second to the US.
In fact, in the time frame you mention, the PRC has built more it major combatant than the US. In the time frame that the PLAN is adding over 70 major new combatants, the US will have added less than 40. At the same time, the US will have decommissioned an entire class of twenty-four capable destroyers, the Spruance class, (among others) many of which still had 10-15 years service life remaining. So the net increase to the PLAN of modern vessels is even greater.

The PLAN is building modern warships at a fantasticly impressive rate, even with all the various different varieties. And they are clean and very capable warships with increasing high tech weaponry, sensors, etc.
 

bd popeye

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Jeff sez;
The PLAN is building modern warships at a fantasticly impressive rate, even with all the various different varieties. And they are clean and very capable warships with increasing high tech weaponry, sensors, etc

Very true. Very true indeed. The PLAN is a force to be respected. The PLAN needs to train their sailors on operating those ships and spending more time at sea actually training instead of sitting in the classroom. When any sailor goes to sea you can't help but to be proficent in your job because when you go to sea you do your job..day after day after day. Big Daddy Popeye knows..I spent many years at sea..Day after day after day...
 

crobato

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PLAN needs to rest for a while after commissioning the 051Cs and the last Sovremannies. You need to take a break for the same reason after a person just ate a lot; you need time to digest. There are probably programs for even more advanced destroyer designs, and probably might upgrade the first two Sovremannies in the near future.

The focus will shift to perfecting the 054A, and we might probably see the 054B come up with VLS and such, most likely the VLS Shtil-1. The Yuans will be perfected and production will shift from the Songs (approximately 13-14 subs by now) to the Yuans.

Let's not neglect the improvements that will come from the air, mainly Y-8 variants that will greatly improve the PLAN's reconnaissance and targeting capability, supported by H-6s, JH-7s and Su-30MK2s with the latest antiship missiles. The net effect of the improved Y-8s is that they let you coordinate, focus and magnify the PLAN's sea power without adding more vessels to the fleet. The PLAN working in better coordination with a more modernized PLAAF with KJ-2000s providing surveillance and J-10s/J-11s providing air protection, also furthers to magnify that power.
 

tphuang

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bd popeye said:
Jeff sez;


Very true. Very true indeed. The PLAN is a force to be respected. The PLAN needs to train their sailors on operating those ships and spending more time at sea actually training instead of sitting in the classroom. When any sailor goes to sea you can't help but to be proficent in your job because when you go to sea you do your job..day after day after day. Big Daddy Popeye knows..I spent many years at sea..Day after day after day...
they were mentionning recently on Chinese forums how PLAN is really behind in the practice area compared to PLA and PLAAF. We know that PLA has all sorts of exercises involving blue vs red. It is also quite common in PLAAF. However, the only major exercise the navy has done in the recent years is probably the peace mission 2005 with the Russians.

Also, if you look at the growth in PLAN from even 2003 until now (end of 06), it's quite astounding. You've basically added 2 more sovs, 051Cs, 052B/Cs, 8 kilo subs, many songs, 054s, type 022 FACs, Y-8 MPAs, Y-8 AEWs, AWACs + newer missiles. That's increment of folds. It's probably not something that you can say about any other navy in the world. Although the Japanese/SK building plan in the recent years is also very impressive. But considering what PLAN had even 4 years ago, it makes me wonder what kind of leap it can take in the next 4 years (ie: 07-10).
 
D

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tphuang said:
But considering what PLAN had even 4 years ago, it makes me wonder what kind of leap it can take in the next 4 years (ie: 07-10).

Well in terms of numbers, China can keep churning as many ships out as it wants providing the money keeps coming. China is very lucky to enjoy double digit percentage increases in defence spending - most countries have to make do with much less. Plus there's the issue of the real size of China's defence budget.

What is important is what the quality of future ships will be.

The PLAN has benefited from better technology more than anything else over the years. But I don't think it will be able to gain an increase of that same sort of advantage over the same period of time from now onwards, as the PLAN was rather backward beforehand.

Things will continue to improve, but at a gentler rate in comparison to how they did before.
 

Finn McCool

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Well, I hate to rain on the parade but I have to point something out.

The PLAN is bringing itself up to be a modern, powerful navy at a fast rate, that is for sure. However, navies around the world (JMSDF, Royal Navy, USN, others) are taking naval weaponry to the next generation at the same time that the PLAN is upgrading to reach the current one. Of course, the PLAN will continue to to expand its capabilites, but I don't think that China is going to be a naval superpower anytime soon. To change this, perhaps China should skip a generation in naval development. I know that China may lack the expertise, but it is at least worth trying. Think about how great it would be for the PLAN if it fielded a DDX like design before the US or Japan. Even if it is not as the same quality as foreign designs of the same generation, it would give invaluebale expertise to the Chinese shipbuilding industry and give the PLAN enginnering expertise it needs for the future.
 

Jeff Head

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bd popeye said:
The PLAN needs to train their sailors on operating those ships and spending more time at sea actually training instead of sitting in the classroom. When any sailor goes to sea you can't help but to be proficent in your job because when you go to sea you do your job..day after day after day. Day after day after day...[/COLOR]
What you said...exactly. They now have to train with what they have built and develop the logistics and at sea practise to make it something truly sea-worthy.

Though I have seen a lot of pictures of some level of training going on...I just do not know to what extent, ie. how much they are deploying and for how long. It is one thing to skoot out into the China Sea for a day or two, shoot a missile or two, have the helo conduct a few hours of mock sub hunting and then go back home, and it is entirely different (and much more beneficial) to be at sea on a deployment for three or more months coninuously a couple of times each year..
 
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