News on China's scientific and technological development.

In fact, how science works depends on its separation from business, money and power. How's why most of the scientific projects are funded by the govnt. Influence of corporation is usually short-sighted since it is important and vital for companies to make a profit. On the other hand, overwhelmingly majority of science projects won't make money at all. If influenced by corporations, most of the scientific projects won't be funded. Thus, it is absolutely vital for science to be separated from the corporation.

The concern is that the separation is being, or has been in some cases, broken down by excessive corporate influence over government thereby catering R&D to particular businesses' bottom line even when in cases it should cater to the public.

In the end...someone has to pay.

Research and development is not cheap...where ever it occurs.

Sure, someone has to pay and sometimes that's what public coffers are for and the benefits of that R&D should serve the public at large rather than particular businesses.

None of this is mutually exclusive to what you guys are saying but is a matter of degree on a case by case basis, leaning one way or another as needed.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Can they design a car with compartmentalised, removable recharging batteries? If you can't wait that long, buy extra batteries and pop them in while you charge the empty ones. :D

Of course you have to know what you're doing, and careful not to get zapped.

If it was so easy, why don't they just pack a few more batteries into the car in the first place? :p

Another issue is cold weather. I live in Canada so this is particularly relevant to me. Just this past winter, temperature dipped below -20C (and Toronto, where I live, is one of the milder cities in Canada). My 7-year-old honda civic had to be jump started. I shudder to think what would happen if a 200 km range electric car gets caught in a blizzard.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The concern is that the separation is being, or has been in some cases, broken down by excessive corporate influence over government ...

Sure, someone has to pay and sometimes that's what public coffers are for and the benefits of that R&D should serve the public at large rather than particular businesses....
I am afraid you do not really understand the Free Market in the least.

In a free market society, society at large is benefited by the free market performing the R&D role in a competitive environment which spurns on great achievement and creativity.

The results are self evident now over a couple of hundred years.

Doe sit have its problems? Of course...so does every other system.

Look, SD is not a forum or a thread to argue the benefits and plusses and minuses between the free market and a command economies. It's just not.

So, please, let's not go there.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
No more trend towards ideological arguments and comparisons on the financial front please, stick to the scientific and technological developments China is making.

Comparing those specific developments with similar development elsewhere is fine...as long as it is a technical comparison.

But we ARE NOT going to get into an argument about the merits of competing financial systems which are based on their ideological underpinnings.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Delft, DO NOT RESPOND TO MODERATION means just that.

You know better.

If you question moderation, or want to get it clarified, then respond to it via PM...not in a post on the forum.

Now, talking about what is happening in terms of China's development and R&D is fine...that is what this thread is about.

Comparing specific R&D developments to other efforts is also fine in terms of their technical capabilities, achievements, etc..

But this thread...and any other...is not about comparing the Free Market, the Command Markets, or other systems R&D methodologies and funding strategies to one another.

It is also not about bemoaning whatever you think the deficiencies of the western (or other systems) are. SD is not a platform for anti speech or to push anti agendas.

We know where that leads and SD is not about that.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Jeff, please note that I'm not trying to argue economic systems between east vs. west. I am arguing the differences between industry vs. academia, regardless of nationality, culture or continent. And I think this is an important topic in discussing scientific development in general, again, regardless of nationality. And I agree with you that both systems (I mean industry vs. academia in general, regardless of nationality) are essential. Without the idealistic and theoretical academic work, science will not mature to the stage of product development. On the other hand, without industry, what we find in the labs will stay in the labs forever and will never benefit the people, which is the ultimate goal of any scientific discovery.

with that said, I do believe there should be a good separation between industry and academia. No industry can survive with too much influence from academia. All the endless and highly costly projects that go nowhere in the near term will bankrupt any company, no matter how big the company is. With too much influence from the industry, academia will focus too much on projects that will gain benefit on the short term. That is not good for the healthy development of science. Vast majority of science projects begins as boring and purely hypothetical ideas that "only entertain the curiosity of human mind". Only when they mature to a certain stage, which might take decades or centuries, these boring theoretical ideas begin to become applicable. Too much influence of the industry will steer people away from these seemingly long shots, which will bottle-neck scientific development. Thus, I do think it is a good idea to separate the two, allowing scientists to focus on science in a clean environment without influence from the industry.

This is why most of the scientific projects are funded by the govn't. And I tend to disagree with PanAsia's assessment of how corporate influence is affecting scientific research. Most of the grant-funding agencies in the US are headed and run by scientists. Almost ALL the reviewers of grant applications at these agencies are academic researchers. They review grants only on a part time basis, almost like volunteer work. Take NIH for example, once you get an NIH grant yourself, your name is immediately put on a reviewers' list. You will be required to become a reviewer for the NIH. They almost guilt you into becoming a reviewer. The logic goes like this: we as NIH support your lab, so you will need to help us out too. So once/twice a year, we need to review about a dozen grant applications for NIH. We evaluate the quality of the grant and give a score. The final decision on funding is exclusively dependent on this score. So I would say, with 100% certainty, that we scientists decide our own fate. there is no participation from the industry. Absolutely NONE. And we don't think about applicability when evaluating an application. The only things that we focus on are the scientific merit of the proposal, qualification of the investigator and equipment of the facility.

In fact, industry connection in academia is kind of like a taboo. We need to declare any connection with industry in a disclaimer whenever we publish a paper or submit a grant. In a published paper, this disclaimer is usually promptly shown on the top of the title page to warn readers that our findings and statements MIGHT be influenced by certain financial goal. And each year, we need to fill out tons of paper work to our institutions to declare any connection with the industry. Believe me, it is a huge deal. We published a paper 5 years. One of the co-authors forgot to let us know that he sits on the board of a start-up pharmaceutical company. When we found out, we had to issue an official correction to the paper, stating so-and-so is a board member of XXX company. It shows up every time when you open the link to that paper. Believe me, we would not have done it if we had any choice. Any connection with industry or any kind of operation with financial gain is carefully scrutinized in academia. So when I say, there is little corporate influence in academia, I mean it.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Jeff, please note that I'm not trying to argue economic systems between east vs. west. I am arguing the differences between industry vs. academia, regardless of nationality, culture or continent. And I think this is important topic in discussing scientific development in general, again, regardless of nationality. And I agree with you that both systems are essential. Without the idealistic and theoretical academic work, science will not mature to the stage of product development. On the other hand, without industry, what we find in the labs will stay in the labs forever and will never benefit the people, which is the ultimate goal of any scientific discovery.
No problem. None of that broaches the issues I was trying to avoid...which issues invariably lead to argument, high emotion, moderation, warnings, etc., etc.

with that said, I do believe there should be a good separation between industry and academia. No industry can survive with too much influence from academia. All the endless and highly costly projects that go nowhere in the near term will bankrupt any company, no matter how big the company is.
This is imply not so, vesicles. Numerous companies have large R&D efforts that are focused on the theoretical, just as I explained earlier.

Pharmaceuticals are a great example. I have a nephew who recently got his Doctorate in Pharmaceutical studies. He was immediately hired...at a very good pay...by a private company to do that type of research and he is loving it.

Motorola, Lockhgeed, Boineg, IBM, Apple, etc., etc. all have very strong and varied R&D departments that do delve into the theoretical which departments then pass of their successes to more practical groups that then bring the deceopment forward into products.

Like I said before, a good company that can afford it, will do this. it not only helps the general state of Research and Study...it gives them a leg up on the competition as they discover things that they can bring to market.

This can be true of any economic model.

There is also a HUGE role for academia. Many government programs and many commercial programs issue grants for this type of study in all typed of field to academia.

My own experience with Chordoma Cancer at MD Anderson in Houston, TX is a great example of the Academic, the Commercial, and the Public sector all working together. The results (in my case) or without question., The best equipment, the best care, and the best treatment in the world came out of a fusion of all three.

With too much influence from the industry, academia will focus too much on projects that will gain benefit on the short term. That is not good for the healthy development of science.
]As I stated above, most successful comp[anise realize this and account for it oin their own research departments which have theoretical departments, and in the grants they issue for that type of research.

This is why most of the scientific projects are funded by the govn't.
As stated, there are many that are not too. I am not sure that "Most" even qualifies overall. Perhaps in your own specialty this is true...but not in all.

Most of the grant-funding agencies in the US are headed and run by scientists. Almost ALL the reviewers of grant applications at these agencies are academic researchers. They review grants only on a part time basis, almost like volunteer work. Take NIH for example, once you get an NIH grant yourself, your name is immediately put on a reviewers' list. You will be required to become a reviewer for the NIH. They almost guilt you into becoming a reviewer. The logic goes like this: we as NIH support your lab, so you will need to help us out too. So once/twice a year, we need to review about a dozen grant applications for NIH. We evaluate the quality of the grant and give a score. The final decision on funding is exclusively dependent on this score. So I would say, with 100% certainty, that we scientists decide our own fate. there is no participation from the industry. Absolutely NONE. And we don't think about applicability when evaluating an application. The only things that we focus on are the scientific merit of the proposal, qualification of the investigator and equipment of the facility..
All very good practice for the research and the grants.

In fact, industry connection in academia is kind of like a taboo. We need to declare any connection with industry in a disclaimer whenever we publish a paper or submit a grant. In a published paper, this disclaimer is usually promptly shown on the top of the title page to warn readers that our findings and statements MIGHT be influenced by certain financial goal.
And all very understandable in the areas fo foucus you are involved in.

But again, this does not necessarily apply to all fields and all research.

Lockheed, Boeing, and many other firms have theoretical research that goes on within their own confines. Some funded by their own direct budgets. Some funded by grants from prifgvatre concerns. Some funded by grants from the government.

What they develop is not a taboo because they are associated with one of those companies. My own Dad, who was a relative geniuis in dynamics engineering for aircraft and missiles, received grant work, while he was employed by Vought, that allowed him to push the envelope on several projects.

Area 51 and the analogous facilities for other "Skunk Work Type" facilities are an example. And they have produced some of the neatest stuff in their fields imaginable.

And each year, we need to fill out tons of paper work to our institutions to declare any connection with the industry. Believe me, it is a huge deal. We published a paper 5 years. One of the co-authors forgot to let us know that he sits on the board of a start-up pharmaceutical company. When we found out, we had to issue an official correction to the paper, stating so-and-so is a board member of XXX company. It shows up every time when you open the link to that paper.
Again, these sorts of provisions and requirements are very understandable depending on the filed you are involved in...and whether you are strictly academic or involved with industry.None of this is a bad thing.

And thought it may be different in terms of the specific requirements and regulation...all systems provide for it someway because any developed country, regardless of system, recognizes the need for such research if they are to continue to push the envelope and remain competitive. Whether the "competitive" part is applied to finaincial, ideological, or technological needs and requirementrs makes little difference in the end.

ALL of them can be very critical to pusing for and developing the creativiness necessary for this type of research...and all of them equally, can be corrupted.

Again, when it comes to those types of comaprisons at the end...SD is not the place for it.

But twhen it comes to talking about th especifics necessary in specific fields, discussing their impact on the specific researcher is okay...as long as the ideological/political/economic system comparisons are left out.
 
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mzyw

Junior Member
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A controversial Chinese study that reveals genes in human embryos have been modified for the first time has sparked fierce debate.

The research looked at genetic editing techniques - which in theory can be used to snip out faulty bits of genetic material that would otherwise lead to serious inherited diseases.

This is the first time it is known to have been attempted on early human embryos. But the results suggest it can cause new, unintended genetic errors.

Experts are questioning whether the procedure - which, if taken further, could lead to genetic changes being passed on to future generations - has crossed ethical, moral and legal lines.

Discarded embryos
The study was published in the less well-known journal
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, by a team of scientists from the Sun Yat-sen University, Guangzhou.

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that more established journals such as Nature and Science rejected it on ethical grounds.

Researchers say they collected faulty human embryos incapable of leading to live births, from discarded stores at fertility clinics.

Using gene editing complexes they then tried to cut out and replace a gene responsible for a serious blood disorder.

But in many cases the procedure failed. And in some embryos, new genetic mutations, so-called off-target effects, arose in unexpected places.

Scientists suspect this was down to the gene editing technology working in places it was not intended to.

Researchers concluded these off-target effects "need to be investigated thoroughly" before any attempts to take the procedure to the clinic.

'Unpredictable effects'
There have been strong reactions to this paper on several grounds.

Many focus on what would happen if embryos modified in this way were implanted in wombs and allowed to develop into live births.

This could mean dangerous, newly created genetic changes are passed on from one generation to the next.

And others argue the technology could be exploited to alter genes for cosmetic reasons.

Dr Yalda Jamshidi, at St George's University Hospital, said: "In theory, replacing the defective gene with a healthy one would be the ideal solution.

"Researchers have been working on developing techniques to accomplish this for many years.

"However, altering genes in human embryos can have unpredictable effects on future generations."

Others have questioned whether these techniques are even legal under current laws.

Prof Robin Lovell Badge, at the Crick Institute, says such procedures could be legal in the UK if granted a licence after careful consideration by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority.

But it would be illegal to then implant the embryos into a woman for further development.

Meanwhile in the US, it would not be possible to do this with federal funding. But finances from private companies and charities could be used in states that do not ban the procedure, he says.

As gene editing methods become simpler and more widely available, some scientists argue firm global governance is needed.

And they say regulations must make clear the difference between gene editing used in reproductive cells rather than cells that are not passed on.

Several trials are underway attempting to modify non-reproductive cells as an approach to treat cancer, for example.

But how international regulations would be enforced on technology that is easily accessible and developing at a fast pace, is unclear.

Some experts have gone even further, calling for a
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on further studies while science and society decide how far the technology should be allowed to go.

Genetic hopes
But despite the uproar, not everyone is against the research.

They argue that studies which bring us incrementally closer to eliminating life-limiting genetic diseases must be allowed to continue.

Prof Lovell Badge says he is fully supportive of research being carried out on early human embryos in laboratory settings - especially on embryos that are not required for reproduction and would otherwise be discarded.

If the techniques work, he says, there are many questions that could be asked about the role of specific genes in early human development.

And should the technology be proven safe and effective with further trials, the nature of the argument could change.

Prof Darren Griffin, at the University of Kent, argues if these obstacles are overcome, the next consideration is whether it crosses a moral boundary to apply it to patients.

"Equally, some will ask if the procedure is safe, do we have a moral imperative to make sure that we do it?"

Interesting read, I really don't like ethics too many grey areas.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm a little confused as to why there's so much uproar over this. From what I understand the reserachers were quite explicitly clear that this was never intended to directly lead to anything outside the lab (i.e.: clinical use) and certainly not implanted in any way given the embryos were incapable of leading to live births in the first place.

I think so long as this kind of technique doesn't result in any live births and/or clinical use without extensive debate and establishment of a normal operational standard then this kind of research shouldn't be a problem.

I can't help but feel the controversy surrounding this case is a little premature.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
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Interesting read, I really don't like ethics too many grey areas.
Already posted. It led to a good discussion...but it has scrolled a couple of pages back now so your post will let others see it.

As long as we do not rehash the same discussion we just had...that is fine.

You might do a search on the article title before posting though, to avoid duplicates.
 
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