New Type98/99 MBT thread

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yeah I don't think Chinese designers used an Iraqi version to study. The Iraqi tanks fired export rounds and often had to use training rounds because they ran out of ammo quickly. Maybe their guns were also made cheaply compared to the guns that went into Soviet tanks. It doesn't really matter at this point and reliable, accurate information on 80s gun design + development is scarce. ZPT-98 currently used in Type 99/A is different to the version used in Type 96A/B. Both are modernised versions of the original 125mm used in the trial Type 80/5. Sharing a common ancestor or not, at some point probably in the 90s, these manufacturing techniques began to diverge and today's ZPT-98 is far more different to today's 2A46M5 when compared to their originals.

There are plenty of sources of questionable reliability that claim ZPT-98 has considerably higher bore pressure and muzzle velocity. The Type 99's gun is supposedly also more refined and costlier to produce than the standard grade, shorter barrel gun used in the Type 96.

This is actually a surprisingly common practice in Chinese (and I'm sure also many other's) manufacturing. Having parallel lines but with a standard quality type and a more refined variant. Some cheap structural components are manufactured to cost very little by bypassing certain fabrication processes that were considered "overkill" or too much of a "luxury" by the engineers tasked with shaving costs further and further. Cost-cutting is is not always the best approach as evidenced by all the failures in history around the world. But fortunately or unfortunately, these decisions make a lot of economic and strategic sense. Usually these decisions are VERY carefully quantified using some maths I really do not care for anymore *shudder* but often it's the case there is also demand for the higher quality piece for the more risk averse jobs and decision makers. In a commercial market place, often these products are the ones from Germany etc but for a domestic tank gun... they're going to be building both the standard no frills version AND the higher grade product, often side by side.

Many make the mistake in assuming that because Chinese commercial products do not cater to the high end market, there's no ability to manufacture these. This is actually working for China a lot ironically enough. The high end is where corporations go to die. Occupying the low end masses is where the money is at. How many high end producers of super luxury items are still family owned and not purchased by a "ghetto" company/ equity firm? Sure practice in making high end products is important in getting it right and commercially, many Chinese products still generally fail here (growing list of exceptions nowadays), but when we're talking about military equipment, Chinese manufacturers have been playing high end because that's what the military evaluates and purchases. They are not allowed to buy European for example so there is no stigma over quality to restrain Chinese military products. The only issue with this dynamic is the absence of outside competition but on paper, the technology is second maybe only to USA these days for the most part.

Anyway point is there are currently at least two guns designated ZPT-98 and manufactured to at least two grade types.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I've never read any source that states that the gun is a point of driving up costs. Or that the 99A and 96(X) uses different guns. Most sources presume it is due to the heavy armor on the 99A. For being a 3 man tank, it's absurdly heavy.

Do you have any sources regarding the actual cost of the 99A? I've been looking for it's actual cost, since there's quite a few articles that say production was cut down on due to excessive cost, but none of them said what the cost actually was.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I've only come to the conclusion they use different guns because I've spent some time comparing the two visually (hahaha so nerdy) and noticed some differences. There are also sources claiming different lengths. I don't save sources so best not to take my word for it but these are my convictions based off what I've seen and read.

99A is meant to be able to accommodate a >125mm gun if mods need to be made, explaining the new turret geometry.

Sorry I don't keep the stuff I've read saved and don't recall just how much more a 99 costs over a 96. Continuing MBTs to me is like choosing to still make swords for your soldiers in an era of machine guns. Old habits and thinking die hard. We live in an age of technology where one side with superior technology wins convincingly. Better to spend that time and money on catching up in the naval and aerospace fields for military programs.
 

Tetrach

Junior Member
Registered Member
"According to Russian military sources, in 1992 China agreed to buy
roughly 50 T-72 MBTs and 70 BMP armoured infantry fighting
vehicles (AIFVs) at a cost of about $250 million.According to other
unconfirmed reports, these tanks were delivered at the end of 1993.
"-

"Russian Arms Transfers to East Asia in the 1990s" Alexander A. Sergounin and Sergey V. Subbotin -SIPRI Research Report No. 15

Also I won't even take in consideration the fact that you compares two tank guns based on how the behave on the firing range.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Chinese shooting performance is better at the tank biatlon because of the fire control system. Russian electronics suck.
I also noticed the Chinese tanks had a sensor to measure gun warping while the Russian tanks in the biatlon did not have such a system.

So it is less an issue of metallurgy or gun barrel quality than all the supporting equipment and electronics used to quickly and accurately target things.
For all we know the Russian gun barrel might even be better. Russian metallurgy is typically pretty good.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
It's an insanely convoluted theory solely made up for wishful thinking. China may or may not have acquired Soviet stuff after the fall, or from the former Soviet republics (as America also did)
And as The PRC did. They got their first Flankers in early 1991. They were not producing their own until 1998. The same for Naval ships and other equipment. The Early 1990s was the Detaunt between Chinese economic rise and Russian economic decline.

Arguing over if the gun came from Captured Syrian or Iraqi T72 is pointless as we are talking about the Gun not the Armor.
The Chinese had been using 105mm NATO guns on type 85 tanks, they had hoped of getting Nato 120mm but the 1989 tiananmen square event soured the Western relationship.

Russian economic decline and Chinese economic rise gave birth to a new détente.
The Chinese 120mm on the Type 89 tank destroyer was found lack luster.
The Chinese needed a new tank especially a new tank gun.
You can spare me the horseshit about "they didn't have today's level", that they were not world leading doesn't mean they would ever want to copy something from a nation that didn't even have an automobile industry, let alone tank industry.
Again you push this later in the decade. The Iran Iraq war ran from 1980 to 1988. The Iraqi Lion of Babylon ran from 1989 to 1990.
Even then the Lion of Babylon is debated because as you put it the Iraqis had limited industry. The vast majority of Iraqi tanks were Polish kits. The Lion of Babylon only one actually is confirmed and that tank is in the U.S. on display having been assembled from parts found in a Iraqi government wearhouse. Any tank captured by the Iranians in the Iran Iraq war would have been either Polish or Russian in origin.
Because the gun that accurately hit targets on the move (something which the MODERN Russian 2A46M5 on the T72B3M struggles with!),
That's more to do with the Fire control system.
that won the tank gun bid over the Type 89's Western 120mm and an upgunned version of the the rifled Type 59G gun, is clearly based on an iraqi museum piece that couldn't hit or penetrate an abrams at close range, something which even houthi AT weapons can do. Sure.
spare me.
The 120 on the type 89 was Chinese not Western.
Type 59G was a upgrade of the Type 59 series with first the Chinese 120mm then a 125mm all in the 1990s. And the weapons used on in Abrams today are often used when the Huthis are behind the tanks. The Iraqi tanks in the Gulf had export rated ammo top of its class against M60 but Abrams had been improved modern Chobham and Abrams were tanking their shots often at range before the Polish Russian crews could start to get on target.
Several countries disagree with your assessment. They have turned down both T-84 and T-90MS for downgraded Type 96 or Type 99 models.
I never made an assessment I stated this based on a earlier tank you are making the assessments. Or rather an ass of yourself.

My statement is that at some point in the late 1980's the Chinese sampled Russian 125mm tanks I stated the three claimed sources. You have responded with outright dismissals by drag such claims to a later date using myths, faulty facts and arrogance.
Insisting to compare to the more modern Type 96 and Type 99 tanks. Those tanks were the result of years of work post gulf war. Post 1991. The tank I pointed to was the Type 90II which first displayed in the 91 92 time frame. Concurrent with the Gulf war.
That can only mean 1 of 2 possibilities:
Possibility 3.
The Chinese in the Late 1980s early 1990s realized that the 105mm gun was rapidly becoming obsolete. They attempted to buy and licence German 120mm smooth bores but were rebuked. They tried to clone 120mm smooth bores but ran into technical issues. They procured samples of Russian tanks indirectly for analysis and potential reverse engineering. During which they found the 125mm gun more compatible with their then technical capabilities. They introduced for export Upgrades of Type 59 and a new Type 90II. The year was 1991 and they were ready for show but the 1991 gulf war showed that Russian and Polish made tanks didn't fair as well as hoped against Abrams and modern western exports.
Although they did show the tank in 1992 they were already giving it a total and complete redesign. By 1996 they had the Type 96 with a new gun. The issues that had plauged the Type 89 gun had been solved. A new armor package was ready. That entered service in 1997. Then they designed an even newer gun and armor for a new tank design the Type 98 these two tanks would be continuously improved with better armor and improvements. By contrast the Russians faced a harder up hill battle as although they had been ahead in 1985 their economic collapse had gutted their advancements and resources. The 1991 gulf war proved that their export tanks form the early 80s mid 1980s were not as good as hoped and the training they gave was not helping.
They were only to happy to sell to the Chinese what they had for armor upgrades not avalibile to the Iraqis. But these were brand new and the Russians only had small amounts themselves. So when the Iraqi tanks got popped blame interior Iraqi builds or better yet Polish exports.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nah. The Iraqis were using AP rounds with solid shot. AFAIK they did not have depleted uranium rounds and even their tungsten core rounds were limited to say the least.
Also the T-72s in Iraqi service did not have composite armor. This was available in Soviet tanks at least since the T-72A.

Then there is the lack of modern fire control systems, sights, and night vision equipment. A lot of times in tank-vs-tank battles the first tank to shoot the other wins.
Most Iraqi tanks did not even have IR systems and those which did only had 1st generation systems which used an IR light and had limited sight range.

So basically it took a long time to aim at a target and, when you did shoot at something, most likely your shots would shatter or bounce off. At night you were basically a sitting duck and easy prey to opposing tanks.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That's my point @gelgoog. Those were the standard of the day for T72 export market customers in the 1980s. The Soviets upgraded their tanks at home and a few Satilite states but not middle eastern countries. Same for the shells. In the 1990s those became more common features for export but even Russian tanks didn't have all their ERA in the Chechen war.
 

by78

General
Type-99 at proving ground, where it undergoes torture tests.

Note the bustle rack and grenade dispenser have been removed:
46991999454_62acf1bc85_o.png



The wear and tear to the rubber damping rings around the running wheels:
46992000184_8f703a1d59_o.png
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The Chinese shooting performance is better at the tank biatlon because of the fire control system. Russian electronics suck.
I also noticed the Chinese tanks had a sensor to measure gun warping while the Russian tanks in the biatlon did not have such a system.

So it is less an issue of metallurgy or gun barrel quality than all the supporting equipment and electronics used to quickly and accurately target things.
For all we know the Russian gun barrel might even be better. Russian metallurgy is typically pretty good.

But I thought the Russian didn't allow the use of fire control system to even out the odd in biathlon
 
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