New Type98/99 MBT thread

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Even a design like Omsk's Black Eagle Prototype would be an improvement over the Type 99 IMHO.

The Black eagle never left concept and the builder went under.
That said the concept would have been very impressive. A Bustle loaded autoloader with unitary 125mm ammo in a semi unmanned turret.

There are armor upgrade packages for the Leopard 2 but Turkey hasn't bought these

It's not that Turkey hasn't bought them it's that Turkey wasn't offered. After the original order of Leopard2 The Turkish government had a shake up and took a number of political prisoners some with ties to Germany. Farther more the Turkish signed a agreement that rhey were not supposed to use those against the Kurds... The turks did that anyway.
The Germans were pissed and froze them out of deals.
This is part of the reason why Turkey started driving its own arms programs but those won't provide combat ready fruit for some time.

 

[ougoah]

I think with the modernization of the Chinese armed forces the Army has gotten the short end of the stick thus far. Just look at what the South Koreans can field as an example of what I'm talking about. The K2 is quite likely the most advanced tank in service right now.

K2 is what it is and as expensive as it is because the South Koreans may actually need to fight some demanding land battles. For China, any serious fight will be fought, won or lost in the air and/or on the seas (Russia can't invade China anytime soon and India and China are separated by the world's most unfriendly landscape). Any non-serious fight can be taken care of very easily using what the PLA already has. What they have is already total overkill. Thus the budgeting focuses on improving the only real deterrent, non-conventional weapons, while modernising the airforce and navy. US holds such a conventional edge over China, even today, that the best way to avoid war is with the promise of mutual destruction. Second priority to this is research and development of halo technologies that leapfrog the need for catching up in every conventional area. After this comes modernisation of conventional forces for every other threat outside of the USA. Way down the list are MBTs. All the best MBTs in the world won't save you from enemy air-superiority.

 

[FishWings]

@ougoah If China goes to war with India, Pakistan will certainly be on the side of China. In that case, what will stop PLA's land armies from passing through Pakistan and attacking southward towards India?

 

[ougoah]

@FishWings If China and India end up somehow fighting for whatever reason, it won't be easy to use tanks offensively. Neither side can effectively transport hundreds of tanks through the himalayas. Only Pakistan may possibly allow China use of its borders like you mentioned but that's really inviting Indian forces to attack those lines. China, like India, is geared up more defensively and neither can really stretch their lines long enough for an invasion. For any PLA land armies to pass through Pakistan, PLAAF would need to neutralise IAF otherwise those land armies are sitting targets.

 

[FishWings]

Surely the PLA would also deploy both its air force and SAMs to counter that threat. In this case, Pakistan would be where the PLA would concentrate its forces, and where most of the fighting would probably take place. This is because everywhere else (such as the Himalayas) is so difficult to carry out massed operations

 

[ougoah]

Surely the PLA would also deploy both its air force and SAMs to counter that threat. In this case, Pakistan would be where the PLA would concentrate its forces, and where most of the fighting would probably take place. This is because everywhere else (such as the Himalayas) is so difficult to carry out massed operations

I don't think this scenario is anywhere near realistic. When I said PLA will likely only see Russian and Indian MBTs in the near future if at all, is more from a defensive position. In case there is invasion of PRC sovereignty or military aggression in disputed regions. Russia and PRC have officially settled all land disputes as far as I'm aware so that potential is slim to none. India is the only other potential threat. PLA invasion of India through Pakistan is just nonsensical. Both India and China seem to be weary of each other but both sides are nuclear powers right next door to each other. Invasion of sovereignty outside of disputes being flared up is close to impossible.

 

[SilentObserver]

How does the Type 99 fair against their most likely adversary, South Korean K2 Panthers MBT in terms of battlefield performance and metrics.

I think in the environment of Korea, K2 is better than Type 99. K2 was designed to fight in mountain terrain. It's "In-Arm Suspension Unit" enables an extra 10 degrees of elevation (24 degrees) and depression on top of Type 99 (

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

). Those 10 degrees would mean the ability to peak over hill tops without being fully exposed or engage targets up on the mountains. All being equal and without air support, those extra degrees of vertical barrel movement will make a world of difference in a one-on-one tank battle in Korea.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

IIRC the designers of Type 99 initially wanted to implement ISU like K2 but they didn't pursue it due to costs and the unreliability of the system at the time caused by the general weakness of China's industrial base. That was two decades ago and China's industrial base is much stronger now. Such a system would be possible now and I would expect it to have a high probability of appearing in China's next generation MBT.

In an environment like Korea traditional metrics like firepower and armor would be downgraded in importance while mobility of the chassis and gun and situational awareness would be upgraded in importance.

 

[gelgoog]

There is more to it than that. The Korean K2 has a turret larger than what is necessary for a 125mm gun. Specifically so it can be upgraded in the future to use a higher caliber gun. Like the Rheinmetall 130mm gun or the prototype 140mm gun. It is also expected that the German Leopard 3 will have a 130mm gun although that is not confirmed yet. The Japanese Type 10 also has an interesting technology, it has a continuously variable transmission, so the tank can travel as fast backwards as forward and it's easier to drive.

I can understand that China has different concerns in mind. This type of hydropneumatic suspension system is expensive. But they could do like the Russians did with the T-14 Armata and only make a couple of the roadwheels have independent suspension. That would make the tank more economic than making the whole suspension hydropneumatic. The reason why I mentioned the Black Eagle prototype is because it was a tank design which is similar enough to Soviet/Chinese tank design and yet it solves the main issue with the T-72 variants which is the carousel type autoloader. Because the ammo is stored below the turret that makes the tank highly vulnerable since an ammo rack detonation will fly the turret off the vehicle. That was a big issue in the Gulf War. If you use the bustle mounted autoloader you can add blow out panels and make the tank a lot safer for the crew in case the armor is penetrated. I think China has a definite advantage over Russian tanks with regards to the FCS. At least when I watched it first time in the tank Biathlon it seemed a lot more accurate while firing on the move. It not only has a thermal sleeve but it has a gun barrel distortion correction mechanism.

 

[by78]

A look at the active defense system on Type-99A...

 

[Dfangsaur]

Type99a gets a desert camo