New single engine stealth fighter by chengdu?

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Smaller planes used for area defense only doesn't need stealth. They can design a smallish plane, single engine with all the bells and whistles of a 5th gen but minus the stealth aspect or less stealth to save cost.
Fin if you are a nation of the defencive. The PRC wants to project power though.

Remember the US air force and navy are designed for attacking/fighting away from home turf. Whereas the Chinese air force at the moment and near future is meant to defend Chinese space. With J20 there is already an aggressive wing to the air force they don't have before.
If it was just defence then they are covered. SU30, SU35, J10, J11 these would be fine when partnered with powerful radars. The PLA wants to be able to operate beyond the mainland and export. the kind of light weight machines you are describing are more suited to a far lower end user. A sort of fifth gen F5.

So if there will be a light fighter it can incorporate stealth, but I don't think it is going to be primarily designed for it. Primary goal is probably to be able to fill air force numbers to eventually replace J10 and older with all the best stuff. And if they can get some stealth into it and not break the bank, great.
J10 is 9 years old hardly ready for the scrap yard. A J10 replacement should be closer to the 2030s. The PLA seems to want an F35 of their own perhaps not VTOL but a stealthy day to day fighter that can do the Jobs J20 is to high and mighty to do... Wel J20 is off playing Top Gun they want a Intruder to drop the bombs.
Whereas F35 wanted the best of everything wrapped in a stealth package and thousands of planes, that breaks banks.
All advanced programs are pricey F35 is just not yet fully implemented it's program costs + actual construction / units ordered= Unit costs.
The PRC and Russia don't advertize the unit costs where they stand only where they want them for export we have no actual prices on PRC J20, FC31 or J10
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Single engines fighters are actually ideal for like 80% of countries in this world. Most countries do not have huge land mass like USA, China, Russia etc. There are only a few exceptions like Australia, Canada, Brazil, India etc.

Most countries on Earth are relatively small maybe 200 miles at it's widest or 500 at it's longest. Many are much smaller still. You can reach anywhere in 15 minutes on supersonic not to mention your air bases are likely close to the coast anyway.

If a superpower picks a fight with these smaller nations, they have a much bigger problem than worrying about wheter their fightters are 5th gen dual engine stealth or 4th gen single like say the F16.

There is also quality in quantity especially when used in defence of nation under the host C4isr network and air defense umbrella.

If I am a small to medium size nation and relatively wealthy I would invest in 'cheaper' fighters but acquire more of them and invest heavily in ground based air defense infrastructure than to buy a tiny batch of super expensive 5th gen fighters.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Fin if you are a nation of the defencive. The PRC wants to project power though.


If it was just defence then they are covered. SU30, SU35, J10, J11 these would be fine when partnered with powerful radars. The PLA wants to be able to operate beyond the mainland and export. the kind of light weight machines you are describing are more suited to a far lower end user. A sort of fifth gen F5.

J10 is 9 years old hardly ready for the scrap yard. A J10 replacement should be closer to the 2030s. The PLA seems to want an F35 of their own perhaps not VTOL but a stealthy day to day fighter that can do the Jobs J20 is to high and mighty to do... Wel J20 is off playing Top Gun they want a Intruder to drop the bombs.
All advanced programs are pricey F35 is just not yet fully implemented it's program costs + actual construction / units ordered= Unit costs.
The PRC and Russia don't advertize the unit costs where they stand only where they want them for export we have no actual prices on PRC J20, FC31 or J10

PRC doesn't want to project power the same way as US, and is for the foreseeable future defensive in nature. The only power they want to project is economic and political. I don't see them invading anyone soon.

10 years of development would be 2027, any numbers produced will easily be 2030s. And not jus J10 that needs replacing, think of all the J7 and J8 in service still. A small multirole plane will be replacing all of those eventually. Its about volume and not just quality. China can't afford what the USA can, and don't want to spend all that money either.

You don't need a stealthy plane for dropping bombs against ISIS and the like. And anything less than a F35 is pretty much useless vs a country with developed air defences.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
PRC doesn't want to project power the same way as US, and is for the foreseeable future defensive in nature. The only power they want to project is economic and political. I don't see them invading anyone soon.
Then The stealth bomber reports, the Carriers and other programs are a waste. The PRC intends to apply power to project power. you cannot power project on the defensive.

10 years of development would be 2027, any numbers produced will easily be 2030s. And not jus J10 that needs replacing, think of all the J7 and J8 in service still. A small multirole plane will be replacing all of those eventually. Its about volume and not just quality. China can't afford what the USA can, and don't want to spend all that money either.
Fifth generation platforms are not just stealth. They are sensor fusion and multi role ability A Stealth F5 is not a fifth gen fighter.

You don't need a stealthy plane for dropping bombs against ISIS and the like.
Okay first true but that's not the point of F35 or fifth gens.
And anything less than a F35 is pretty much useless vs a country with developed air defences.
The MADL, low probability of intercept radar, sensor fusion, low observable technologies that's the whole point of fifth generation platforms! F35 has a much higher chance of survival vs a sophisticated Air defence equipped nation then a legacy fighter.
Fifth generation fighters are not just fourth generation fighters with faceting. the whole point of Stealth is to avoid detection and application of Shaping, Materials, sensors and frequency hopping emissions and occasionally even low level jamming sit at the heart of that. yes yes we have all heard the Claims of Stealth being a sham or stealth killer radars but if that was the case why would the US, Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, Turkey, Sweden, and even Iran are looking into stealth fighter technologies? why are Naval ships taking on stealth technology?
As you just pointed out Stealth is not needed to drop bombs on IS or AQ nations without air defense systems could be bombed by drones and F16's or J10's heck B52s.
the point of stealth is for near peer level adversaries and those with air defence networks. the point of fifth gens is to allow a nation with them to counter other nations area denial. to do that it is designed to avoid detection by radar though shaping and materials, but that only works to a point eventually if you fly blindly into an enemy radar network you will be seen.
Even the invisible man has to breath in the cold and leave footprints in the sand. for Stealths if you fly too close to the radar you are visible. so you need sensors to tell you this area is emitting strongly but these are not.
but if you are there you need to communicate if you are in numbers and you need to see who else if flying. so you need radar and radio, but if you broadcast you can be heard.
no matter how invisible you are everyone will know you are there is you start singing. So you need to to keep changing frequencies to keep your signals from getting tracked.

Of course we have all heard about long frequency radars Old school systems that don't reflect the same way as the modern stuff. Yet they always forget the reason everyone moved away from those radars is they are not going to give clear images, they are prone to static, demand huge arrays, and don't give allot of the data for attacking radars. Farther more they are easily confused, Aluminum foil chaff, and active jamming in the latter it doesn't even need to be powerful jamming low level jamming can fill the screen with white noise clutter which resembled the same signature Stealth fighters produce.
Of course there is the Claimed "Quantum Radar" but a proof of concept and a actual deployable system are very different things.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Then The stealth bomber reports, the Carriers and other programs are a waste. The PRC intends to apply power to project power. you cannot power project on the defensive.

Sure you can. One would want to stop one's enemies before they can drop bombs on you. All China's most properous cities are along the coast. Pretty sure China don't want them get bombed. Some other country had multiple military bases along China's coast you know
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
..................
Projection of power is the ability to force your will on others atleast via perception. Carriers and Bombers are power projection.
The PRC wants that. They have programs to develop that and assure that. Being a super power is not simply the theoretical influence it's the practical ability to influence.
J20 is an Air superiority machine, it's Job is to ensure Enemy forces cannot operate without impunity, but the Air is not the only threat. If you intend a light stealth you intend to counter air and missile forces. that means the ability to strike targets that means bombers and strike fighters. Light fighters are strike fighters the ability to intercept if needed but strike ground targets is needed.
For that you need the ability to carry heavy weapons and conduct raids. that means a fighter with targeting and attack capacity.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
moving on.
I have a feeling this new Chengdu single engine stealth fighter will look like a hybrid of early JAST (JSF) proposal and the Yakovlev MFI proposal

JAST
2010_JAST_PR160502_2_1267828237_3513.jpg


Yakovlev MFI
yakovlev_MFI_2.jpg

Another JAST concept. image004.jpg

FS2020 Sweden concept model fs2020.jpg
Twin tails is standard All tailed Stealths have twintails it helps as they are able to angle the vertical stabilizers preventing a 90* angle.
All I hope is that it doesn't look like the X32.
cfa648cc-f0df-4586-8670-bc0fb59b719d2.jpg
I am sure the Canard debate is always open, but It is an option
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Twin tail is not de rigeuer in stealth designs. What you want to avoid are two or more surfaces oriented 90 degrees with respect to eachother, thus potentially forming a corner reflector.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Twin tail is not de rigeuer in stealth designs. What you want to avoid are two or more surfaces oriented 90 degrees with respect to eachother, thus potentially forming a corner reflector.
Correct I should have been more accurate and said vertical stabilizer
adf.jpg
* Ironic GD eatly entry models for the F16 not lower right hand image became F16 well upper left looks like F35. *
If you have a single vertical stabilizer and a horizontal stabilizer they almost always form a 90* angle and 90* angles as you said are bad for stealth. and if you have a primary delta wing it to forms a 90* angle.
so you have to find another option. Those options are no tail. X-36_Tailless_Fighter_Agility_Research_Aircraft.jpg
which is not exactly a popular move, but with fly by wire was actually very nimble.
or a multi stabilizer configuration which is what all stealth fighters have. but not yet seen on any stealth bombers.
Option 1 is the V tail like that on the F117
vV2FS.jpg
This is popular on slower aircraft and drones.
A3fa28.jpg
* yes fictional aircraft but shows the sweep,
A semi V tail or swept twin stabilizer that cants the vertical fin outwards ( although Inwards should also be an option) nsvNl.jpg
or a Pelican tail. this merges the vertical fins and horizontal into a single structure. It's seen on Lockheed Martin's concept art for the Sixth gen fighter and the YF23 here.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
A hint as to what CAC's 5th generation medium-weight might look like:

13996862.jpg
6788531865_f8b8e3a1c3_b.jpg

These images are of the FC-2 project (known as "J-2X" back in 2011 when leaked by the insider), which was supposedly a WS-15-powered single-engined aircraft slated to fly in 2013. Of course, that maiden flight never materialized.

If there is indeed a single-engine 5th generation project (which could be the J-10D), this is most likely it.
 
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