*New J-10 Thread*

[MIGleader]

You have been mislead to beleive that. Even pakistani delegation held talks with Grifo/Selex consortium for avionics package. And Pakistan's aircrafts no matter how cheap always tend to have good avionics on them (examples are old mirages and F-7s).

And why can't Pakistan afford AESA or PESA?? It doesnt have to have em on all 150 aircraft.

Buying in bulk cuts down on the price. If pakistan wants to have a cheaper AESA, it cant just buy a few of them. AESA is expensive, however you look at it. merely buying 25 AESA radars might equal the amount of money that could buy 25 new jf-17s.

Besides, there might be some U.s objection to that, since pakistan might just "drop" a radar, and the chiense will "pick it up".

 

[Diving Falcon]

more up to par??

give me a break. original specs were matched by chinese radar. any pesa/aesa would definitly exceed specifications by a large margin.

fc1 is not f22. it is cheap 3rd generation for pakistan. such technologies would be illfitting for the fc1.

Don't you think specifications change over time? That perhaps Radar-A is better than Radar-B in regards to Customer-X's requirements? Perhaps Supplier-Y wants to design Radar-C to be in line with Customer-X's requirements or changed requirements? FC-1 is no F/A-22, but it isn't an F-7 either. For a fighter that will serve for 30+ years, potentially oppose advanced variants of Su-30, Mirage 2000, MiG-29, etc; you might as well expect some heavy requirements.

Having talks is one thing, but making it happen is another. how much is an AESA? Several million dollars? 5 million? Can Pakistan afford it?

Would Grifo sell it to Pakistan if only a few planes out of the 150 will have it?

The first 50 will use Chinese Avionics. Does that mean the next 100 will use Grifo? Can Pakistan afford to spend 500million on AESA?

Talks are always a start, your first statement would have been solid if you said "thinking is one thing, but making it happen is another".

Sure an AESA costs 5mn, but what are the added benefits of adding such a radar? Potentially lower maintenance costs? Considerably better performance? There is no 110% chance that things will go well for PAF in regards to advanced fighters....and there is a high chance that options like spending an additional 500mn USD on 100 planes, as an alternative. If adding AESA helps bridge a long technology + performance gap with realistically minimal amount of money spent; I'm sure PAF will get try to get AESA fixed on its JF-17s.

Lets suppose it even costs 1bn USD to equip AESA on 100 JF-17...how much do you honestly think it will cost to equip some 4 squadrons with advanced fighter jets? 2bn USD? 3bn USD? Depending on the fighter, it would take as much as 10bn USD. So is even 1bn USD a lot?

Pakistan is a poor country, true....but it is not destitute or completely broke!

 

[maglomanic]

Yet you have just stated that you woudn't bet on it happening, right?

WHat i was betting on was, Pakistan switching from a chinese PD to a Grifo PD. I clearly said Pakistan won't be too inclined towards Grifo deal unless they have to offer something out of league like a AESA.

Having talks is one thing, but making it happen is another. how much is an AESA? Several million dollars? 5 million? Can Pakistan afford it?

Pakistan has been actively looking for avionics package for JF-17. Return on investment on such acquisations also involves costs saved in future on maintenace repairs (amortization). So if you keep the entire picture in mind it would look a lil less epxensive. I am not too sure but someone calculated the cost to be at 2.5 million dollars (at 500 TR modules). Don't quote on me it however i would readily agree if you have a source otherwse. .

regarding Pakistan's willingness to spend more. Why not?? The price has gone up anyway. We have seen radical improvemnets in ergonomics and glassing of the cockpit. The need for such acquisations will however depend on baseline scenario in South Asia (IAF's MRCA deal and their upgrade programs-whether that includes AESA/PESA).

Would Grifo sell it to Pakistan if only a few planes out of the 150 will have it?

Sure. Pakistan is along time customer. By few i didn't mean 2 or 3. Equipping even few squardrons could result in a substantial deal for Grifo. And then that can also lead on to a follow on and upgrades. Endless possibilities.

The first 50 will use Chinese Avionics. Does that mean the next 100 will use Grifo? Can Pakistan afford to spend 500million on AESA?
I don't think so.

It's not like Pakistan will induct entire 100 in one year's time. The induction will last well into 2015.

The radar option has been really fluid if you look at the history of entire JF-17 program. Initially Grifo was the main contender but then switch to chinese radar suggests that PAF has been open about it's radar options.
And that holds true if China comes up with another PESA/AESA option first.

 

[maglomanic]

Buying in bulk cuts down on the price. If pakistan wants to have a cheaper AESA, it cant just buy a few of them. AESA is expensive, however you look at it. merely buying 25 AESA radars might equal the amount of money that could buy 25 new jf-17s.

Thats true about bulk buying. However i dont think buying 25 AESA radars of Vixen class will be equal to buying 25 JF-17s.

Besides, there might be some U.s objection to that, since pakistan might just "drop" a radar, and the chiense will "pick it up".

The US themsleves just sold Paksitan JSOW and JDAMS seem to be on cards. China gets exposure to US stuff more form Israel than Pakistan (not that Paksitan will not oblige but they have even more furitful ties with Israelis in this regard).
Besides Grifo has long relationship with PAF.

 

[MIGleader]

Thats true about bulk buying. However i dont think buying 25 AESA radars of Vixen class will be equal to buying 25 JF-17s.

True. But since the bulk of the jf-17 force is due to be inducted into service after 2010, the PAF still has some time to decide on its radar options. Perhaps by then, Russia or China might have a cheaper downgrade of an indegenous AESA for sale.

 

[maglomanic]

True. But since the bulk of the jf-17 force is due to be inducted into service after 2010, the PAF still has some time to decide on its radar options. Perhaps by then, Russia or China might have a cheaper downgrade of an indegenous AESA for sale.

Thats what i think that China (i doubt Russia) has a very good chance of developing an AESA/PESA for JF-17 in due time.

 

[MIGleader]

i think it was something along the lines of two Chinese research institutes signing a deal with 2 russian radar compnaies for the joint development of AESA. i think China will definitely make theirs first. China put a signifigant amount of resources into developing the kj-2000's ESA radar, and the development only took five years. If china puts similar effor into an fighter AESA radar, it should be out before 2010. The russians dont have the kind of money to do that.

 

[crobato]

The Russians already have a PESA for the FC-1. It is the Kopyo-F that had been shown in various airshows near or at the FC-1 booths. As a matter of fact, the radar's brochure got the FC-1 used as a background.

The radar is not perfected of course, but if ordered, the Russians could probably get a bank loan or two to complete the system.

I kind of doubt that the Russians would sell the radar for use with PAF FC-1s because of Indian objection. So they were probably looking at the Chinese market or other markets for this.

 

[maglomanic]

I don't think even PAF will settle for avionics from Russia.

 

[tphuang]

The Russians already have a PESA for the FC-1. It is the Kopyo-F that had been shown in various airshows near or at the FC-1 booths. As a matter of fact, the radar's brochure got the FC-1 used as a background.

The radar is not perfected of course, but if ordered, the Russians could probably get a bank loan or two to complete the system.

I kind of doubt that the Russians would sell the radar for use with PAF FC-1s because of Indian objection. So they were probably looking at the Chinese market or other markets for this.

I think China has had enough bad experiences with delays in Russian radar projects, so that's probably one of the reason it wasn't interested. Another problem is that FC-1 is looked at as an export project, China probably do not want to be restricted by the Russians. Just look at the restrictions that the Russians put on JF-17 exports over RD-93. Also, by the time Kopyo-F is ready, I'm guessing it would not be too far before AESA radar would be ready in China. Also, China might be using USAF as a model and think that it is better to just go straight from slotted array to AESA.