J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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AESA for AWACS and for fighters are two different things. For AWACS you are looking for an S or C band application. For fighters, you are looking at X band. The size of the AESA element has to be matched to the wavelength. So for the longer bands, the element size has to be much bigger than the X-band. There is actually a certain point where its not practical to even use AESA on even longer wavelengths. I would say, nothing longer than S-band.

In that case, shouldn't it be easier to build a X-band AESA as opposed to a C-band or S-band?
 

crobato

Colonel
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Yes, its easier to build one from X-band. Furthermore, the most commonly used substrate today, Gallium Arsenide, works best in X-band.

Though Silicon Carbide elements and arrays are already being developed and researched, this will make S-band arrays much cheaper. Note that Silicon Carbide however, cannot work anything higher than C-band and so cannot be used on X-band arrays. K-band arrays which is even shorter than X-band, has to use something else besides GaAs. So its not just size of the element, but the substrate compound that also differs.

There really is no point in using AESA below S-band, length needed for each element is too impractical. This is where you leave it to linear shifter phase arrays, e.g. the ones whose design looks like it has a grate of lines running horizontal across the face. And below that, its back to the old fashioned antennas like Yagi.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
In that case, shouldn't it be easier to build a X-band AESA as opposed to a C-band or S-band?

there's article from australian AF website,designer can uses existing transistor technology to design and produce T/R module operating in much lower RF band,for X band is different story,much more complicate and expensive to produce.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
重大消息:我国机载相阵控雷达已完成验证试飞
鼎盛军事 
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录入时间:2009-1-24 15:12:51 3129

  鼎盛军事网: 以下部分内容摘自“2008中国十大航空风云人物入围人员介绍”,极具参考价值。

章传芳,回族,中国九三学社第十二届中央委员会委员,政协江苏无锡市第十二届委员会委员,无锡市“科技创新十大女杰”、无锡市“三八”红旗手。


章传芳长期从事航空机载雷达研究工作,在机载雷达天线技术、微波技术和新一代战斗机雷达系统技术方面具有较深的造诣。作为知识型与管理型的复合型女性人才,为雷电院承担的国家重点工程任务的全面完成做出了突出贡献。


章传芳主持开发的脉冲多普勒雷达平板缝阵天线,已批量装备我军多种现役主战飞机。她主持开发研制的国家863计划关键技术研究项目“高分辨率合成孔径雷达样机”的天馈系统,获国家科技进步一等奖。



她主持研制的具有完全自主知识产权的新一代机载火控雷达,于2007年8月首飞成功,在2008年4月完成了验证试飞,填补了国内空白,极大缩小了我国机载雷达技术与国际先进水平的距离,为我国机载雷达事业的发展树立了一个新的里程碑。机载相阵控雷达正是中国航空的薄弱环节。



中国正在研制的多功能歼击机(代号为“火龙”)获得重大科学技术突破,其先进性属于第五代飞机;该机的主要特点是更加先进的气动结构,新型控制系统,机载雷达的能力大为提高,可打击地面目标。该机还具有超级机动能力,如可进行“普加乔夫眼镜蛇机动”,可使其大为扩大使用机载武器的能力,破坏敌歼击机的进攻,退出其武器杀伤区。中国在该机研制上之所以能取得如此之大的成绩,据悉有数十名俄罗斯顶尖级科学家从俄罗斯流失到中国,俄罗斯为此曾多次向中国要求引渡。



“火龙”型机的驾驶导航系统用于完成飞机在简单和复杂气象条件下,在任何季节和昼夜情况下、在陆地和海面上、在任何地形条件下的所有飞行阶段的导航和驾驶任务。在导航设备中包括惯性导航系统、多普勒速度和侧流测量仪、自动无线电罗盘、远距(卫星)导航无线电技术系统、近距导航无线电技术系统、相互座标确定设备、信标无线电接收机等设备。在飞机设备中还有飞机应答机和国别系统应答机。通信系统用于飞行员与指挥所及空中飞机之间进行稳定的双向无线电通话,以及加密无线电电话和遥码通信。在飞机上安装有2部超短波电台、短波电台、无线电电话和遥码通信编码设备、内部通信设备(飞机通话装置)和通话记录设备。



“火龙”型机的武器控制系统也十分先进,其保证在远距导弹战和近距空战中使用制导导弹,用雷达和光学激光站在远距导弹战中捕捉并跟踪目标,在近距空战中捕捉并跟踪可目视的目标,确定所发现目标的国籍,以及使用制导和非制导空面杀伤武器。武器控制系统包括雷达瞄准系统和光电瞄准导航系统。



雷达瞄准系统的重要组成部分是脉冲多普勒雷达,它可保证在前半球和后半球发现和跟踪在净空域和地面背景上的空中目标,以及地形制图和发现地面目标。雷达可同时跟踪大量的空中目标并保证锁定其中最危险的几个目标。雷达使用缝式天线(未来将使用带有相阵控天线的改进型雷达)。为保证全方位空域搜索和在后半球使用制导导弹,在飞机机载无线电电子设备中补充加入了后视雷达,安装在机身中部尾撑上。借助于雷达瞄准系统中的国别询问机来确定所发现目标的国籍。

在光电瞄准导航系统中有驾驶导航系统、光学雷达站、头盔目标指示系统、武器控制系统、信息显示系统和机载数字计算机系统。该系统的瞄准部分完成雷达瞄准系统的功能,但只是在昼间简单气象条件下进行,特点是精度高,抗干扰能力强。光学雷达站是将红外方位仪和激光测距仪联合在一起。红外定位仪可根据热辐射来保证发现目标并进行角度跟踪,激光测距仪用于测量到目标的距离。光学激光站传感器配置在驾驶舱前面的球形整流罩内。

头盔目标指示系统是在飞行员头部转向可能存在目标的方向后,对导弹的自主导引头和光学激光站扫描装置进行目标指示。武器控制系统是在飞行员按下作战按纽后,以给定的间隔和给定的顺序,自动完成航空杀伤兵器的发射程序。为使用数种空面制导武器,飞机补充配备了可替换式武器控制系统舱。信息显示系统保证在前玻璃显示器和多功能电子射线管显示器(或液晶显示器)上显示必要的驾驶导航和瞄准信息。光电瞄准导航系统的工作由机载数字计算机系统控制。地面或空中指挥所通过仪表引导机载设备无线电线路,引导飞机飞向目标。

机载自卫系统用于对飞机受到敌雷达照射做出反应并及时通知飞行员,发现导弹的发射,在雷达和红外波段施放消极和积极干扰。在飞机上安装有无线电技术侦察站、红外定位仪、消极干扰(假热目标和偶极子反向体)投放器、积极雷达干扰站等。控制机载自卫系统的是机载数字计算机。

先进的机载无线电电子设备和制导武器,大大提高了歼击机在打击空中目标和地面(海上)目标时的作战效能。在飞机上安装有“长城”型机载无线电雷达控制系统,包括机载雷达、作战使用中央处理器和国别识别系统询问机。机载雷达为新一代脉冲多普勒多功能多体制X波段相阵抗干扰机载雷达,使用带波导分配系统的消极相阵控天线。天线具有较高的放大效能和较低的旁波瓣水平,发现歼击机类空中目标距离在前半球不少于150-180公里,在后半球超过90公里。可在60-90公里距离上发现“坦克群”目标,在150-180公里上发现护卫舰类的海上目标。机载雷达可同时跟踪20个空中目标,可使用空空武器同时攻击其中的8个目标,在使用空地和空海武器时,可同时攻击2个目标。

先进的机载无线电电子设备配合其它性能,可使该机对任何之敌进行强大打击,包括隐形目标,不进入敌防空区便可对敌地面目标进行攻击,完成低空飞行,绕过和飞越障碍,参加对空中和地面目标的集群行动,自动计算出飞行的所有阶段,自动监控各系统的状态并在极短的时间内排除故障。为进入作战区域,“火龙”可在低空完成长时间的地形规避自动飞行,之后使用自动化系统参加集群空战和强击行动。“火龙”所有阶段的飞行和作战使用都可在自动状态下完成。同时,该型机驾驶轻松舒适,配备有生命保障系统,并且最大限度地简化和减轻了这一复杂航空系统的维护。


the radar more likely a PESA.
 

escobar

Brigadier
google translation

ajor News: China's airborne phased array radar control has been completed to verify test
Peak military
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entry time :2009-1-24 15:12:51 3129

Peak military network: part of the contents of the following excerpt from "2008 China's top ten finalists presented aviation man", great reference value.

Chapter Chuanfang, Hui, China Jiu San Society Central Committee, member of the twelfth, the twelfth in Wuxi City, Jiangsu People's Political Consultative Conference Committee, in Wuxi City, "十大女杰scientific and technological innovation", Wuxi City, "38"红旗手.


Chapter Chuanfang aviation has long been engaged in research on airborne radar, airborne radar in antenna technology, microwave technology and a new generation of fighter aircraft radar system has a deep technical knowledge. As a knowledge-based and management-type compound female talent for lightning homes the state's key projects undertaken comprehensive fulfillment of their tasks have made outstanding contributions.


Chapter Chuanfang presided over the development of flat-panel seam pulse Doppler radar array antenna has a wide range of bulk active main battle equipment of our military aircraft. She presided over the development of the national plan 86 3 key technology research project "high-resolution synthetic aperture radar prototype" of the antenna and cable systems, by the National Science and Technology Progress Award.



She presided over the development of a completely independent intellectual property rights of a new generation of airborne fire control radar, in August 2007 made a successful maiden flight in April 2008 completed the verification test, filled the gap has greatly narrowed the airborne radar in China technology and the international advanced level of distance, for our airborne radar development has set a new milestone. Airborne phased array radar-controlled China Aviation is the weak link.



China is developing multi-purpose fighter aircraft (code-named "Fire Dragon") has achieved significant breakthroughs in science and technology, the advanced nature of belonging to the fifth-generation aircraft; the main characteristics of the aircraft is more advanced pneumatic structure, new control systems, airborne radar's ability to much higher can the fight against ground targets. It also has the super-mobility, such as the "cobra maneuver普加乔夫" can be greatly expanded its use of airborne weapons, destruction of enemy fighters offensive weapons out of their zone. China has developed on the aircraft is able to achieve so much success, it is learned that dozens of Russian top-level scientists from Russia, lost to China, Russia for this purpose has repeatedly demanded the extradition to China.



"Fire Dragon" type of driving machine for the completion of the aircraft navigation systems in simple and complex weather conditions, day and night in any season and circumstances, in the land and sea, in any terrain under the conditions of all phases of flight navigation and driving tasks. In the navigation equipment, including inertial navigation system, Doppler speed and lateral flow measuring instrument, automatic radio compass, distance (satellite) navigation radio technology systems, short-range radio technology navigation system coordinates of each other to determine equipment, radio beacons machines and other equipment. There are devices in the aircraft transponder aircraft transponder system and country. Communication systems for pilots and air command and stability between the aircraft and two-way radios, as well as the encryption code distance telephone and radio communications. Installed in the plane two FM radio, shortwave radio, radio telephone and remote code communications encoding equipment, internal communications equipment (aircraft call device), and call recording equipment.



"Fire Dragon" type of weapon control system is also very advanced, and its long-range missiles to ensure that short-range air warfare and the use of guided missiles, using radar and optical laser standing battle to capture long-distance missile and track the target in the short-range air combat capture and track the target may be visual, to determine the nationality of the objectives identified, and the use of guided and non-guided air-surface weapons. Weapon control system, including radar and electro-optical sighting system targeting navigation system.



Radar targeting system is an important component of the pulse Doppler radar, it can guarantee that after the first hemisphere and the hemisphere to detect and track air and ground in the net against the background of aerial targets, as well as the topographic mapping and discovery of ground targets. Radar can simultaneously track a large number of aerial targets and to ensure that lock the most dangerous of which several goals. The use of sewing radar antenna (the next phase will be used with improved antenna array radar). In order to ensure all-round air search and in the hemisphere after the use of guided missiles, the plane airborne radio electronic equipment to join the latter added as radar, installed in the fuselage up on the central tail. With the radar targeting system, the country asked about the machine to determine the nationality of the objectives identified.

In the electro-optic aiming navigation systems are driving navigation systems, optical radar, the target instructions helmet systems, weapons control systems, information display systems and airborne digital computer system. The system is targeting the completion of the radar targeting system, but only in the daytime simple meteorological conditions, characterized by high precision, anti-interference ability. Optical radar position is to infrared and laser range finder together. Infrared positioning under the heat radiation to ensure the perspective of finding the target and tracking, laser range finder to measure the distance to the target. Optical laser sensor stations deployed in the cockpit in front of spherical dome.

Indicating System helmet goals in the pilot turned his head that may exist after the direction of the target, the autonomy of the missile seeker and optical laser scanning device for target station instructions. Weapon control system is operational in the pilot button press after a given interval and given the order, auto-complete destruction weapons fired aviation procedures. For the use of several air surface guided weapons, aircraft that can be added with the replacement of cabin-style weapon control system. Information display system to guarantee the former glass display and multi-functional electronic-ray tube display (or LCD) to show the necessary driving navigation and targeting information. Electro-optic aiming navigation system by the onboard digital computer system. Ground or air through the instrument guide airborne command post radio lines, and guide aircraft flying target.

Airborne self-defense system is used by the enemy aircraft radar exposure and timely notice to respond to the pilots found that the missile launch, in radar and infrared wavelengths used both negative and positive interference. Installed in the aircraft reconnaissance station radio technology, infrared locator, negative interference (false heat targets and reverse body dipole) Sender active radar jamming stations. Control of airborne self-defense system is airborne digital computer.

Advanced airborne radio electronic equipment and guided weapons, which greatly raised the fighters in the fight against aerial targets and ground (sea) targets combat effectiveness. Installed in the plane the "Great Wall" type of airborne radar radio control systems, including airborne radar, the operational use of the central processing unit and country identification system asked machines. Airborne Pulse Doppler Radar for a new generation of multi-functional multi-system X-band phased array airborne radar interference, the use of distribution system with the negative waveguide phase array antenna. Larger antennas have a high performance and low side lobe level and found that type of fighter air target distance of not less than the previous hemisphere 150-180 km, in the post more than ninety kilometers hemisphere. Can be found 60-90 km away from "tanks group" target of 150-180 kilometers class frigate found the target at sea. Airborne radar can simultaneously track 20 aerial targets, use air-to-air weapons at the same time to attack one of eight goals, in the use of open space and air-sea weapons, are also attacked two goals.

Advanced airborne radio electronic equipment with other properties, will enable it to any of the enemy to carry out powerful attacks, including stealth objectives, not to enter the enemy's air defense zone will be able to attack enemy targets on the ground to complete the low-flying, and flying over the obstacles to circumvent , to participate in air and ground targets cluster action, automatically calculated at all stages of flight, automatic monitoring of the status of various systems and in a very short period of time troubleshooting. For entry into the combat area, "fire dragon" in the low-altitude terrain to complete a long time to circumvent the automatic flight, after the use of automated systems to participate in the cluster and air assault operations. "Fire Dragon" all phases of flight and combat the use of state can be completed automatically. At the same time, driving该型机comfortable, equipped with life support system and to simplify and reduce the maximum of the complex aeronautical systems maintenance.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
there's article from australian AF website,designer can uses existing transistor technology to design and produce T/R module operating in much lower RF band,for X band is different story,much more complicate and expensive to produce.

That's not using a MMIC at all for a T/R module. Rather, each T/R module is made up of a Yagi (looks like a fishbone antenna) as an element. So instead of our known notion of how an AESA looks like, which is like a dish with a matrix of small squares that each make up an element, you got one huge antenna with rows of smaller fishbone or Yagi antennas. It still qualifies as an AESA because each of the smaller antennas transmits and receives as a separate element.

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China has a similar array called the JY-27.
 

Deino

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Over at CDF I found this post by Xinhui !!

xinhui said:
new J-10 regt formed in Chengdu.


成空某新机团新春亮剑(图)

2009-02-03 06:25:53 来源:解放军报第5版

【 字号:大 中 小 】 【 我要打印 】 【 我要纠错 】
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图:机务人员紧急给战机装填导弹

图:双机编队
1月31日,西南某机场。随着开飞命令的下达,一架架新型战机编队滑向起飞线,呼啸而起,直刺苍穹……成空某新机团以一场高难度的跨昼夜飞行训练拉开了新春开训的序幕。

担任开训指挥员的团长杨旭介绍说,开训的课目有新大纲补差、编队特技、对抗空战等,目的是由恢复飞行技术向恢复战斗力水平转变。该团采取先分后合、循序渐进、自下而上、逐级集成的训练路子,推进新机战斗力的稳步提升。 本报特约记者 刘应华 摄


Any idea, which Division ??? In Chengdu MR a possibility could be the 6.. 33. or 37. which are still equipped with one J-7-regiment !?

Thanks in advance, Deino :confused:
 

crobato

Colonel
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Isn't the 6th and the 37th, part of Lanzhou MR instead? The 37th has upgraded to J-8F and J-7G, which makes me think it has become the premier fighter division in the Lanzhou MR or northwest China region. I always felt it can be a J-10 conversion candidate.

The 33rd Division is at Chongging which is not far from Chengdu. That's another possible candidate in my view. One regiment already has Su-27UBKs and J-11s and this division and regiments have had mock exercises with the 44th Division J-10's in the past.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Isn't the 6th and the 37th, part of Lanzhou MR instead? The 37th has upgraded to J-8F and J-7G, which makes me think it has become the premier fighter division in the Lanzhou MR or northwest China region. I always felt it can be a J-10 conversion candidate.

The 33rd Division is at Chongging which is not far from Chengdu. That's another possible candidate in my view. One regiment already has Su-27UBKs and J-11s and this division and regiments have had mock exercises with the 44th Division J-10's in the past.

Yupp ... Sorry, my foult !!

So the most likely Division could be the 33. !

Thanks, Deino
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Yupp ... Sorry, my foult !!

So the most likely Division could be the 33. !

Thanks, Deino

Chongging, which the 33rd is based, is quite close to Chengdu. Which makes the 33rd the closest regiment to the city of Chengdu. Long time ago, I speculated that the 33rd should have been the first to have a J-10 unit. Already at that time, it was equipped with Su-27UBKs (mostly) and some J-11s, which makes one particular regiment, more of a training regiment for other J-11 regiments. That sort of signifies an elite status and I would have thought it would have made a proper unit to train and seed other units on the J-10.

Alas, the selection of the 44th, although still in Chengdu MR, but a province away, was quite a surprise.
 
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