Near confrontation between American and Iranian Naval forces

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crazyinsane105

Junior Member
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This isn't good. Regardless of who the aggressor was (in this case it is Iran) there should be open communication between the two naval forces so an incident like this doesn't happen, as it can spiral out of control and the consequences will be devastating for both the US and Middle East.


Pentagon says ships harassed by Iran

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer 56 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - An Iranian fleet of high-speed boats charged at and threatened to blow up a three-ship U.S. Navy convoy passing near Iranian waters, then vanished as the American ship commanders were preparing to open fire, the top U.S. Navy commander in the area said Monday.
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No shots were fired an an Iranian official in Tehran said the incident amounted to "something normal."

Bush administration officials complained that the Iranian actions amounted to a dangerous provocation, but one private analyst said the Iranians may have believed they were acting defensively in a narrow waterway that is heavily trafficked by commercial ships, including oil vessels.

The incident raised new tensions between Washington and Tehran as President Bush prepared to depart Tuesday on his first major trip to the Middle East.

The three U.S. warships — cruiser USS Port Royal, destroyer USS Hopper and frigate USS Ingraham — were headed into the Persian Gulf through the Straits of Hormuz on what the U.S. Navy called a routine passage inside international waters when they were approached by five small high-speed vessels believed to be from Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy.

The Iranians "maneuvered aggressively" in the direction of the U.S. ships, said Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff, the commander of U.S. 5th Fleet, which patrols the Gulf and is based at nearby Bahrain. The U.S. ship commanders took a series of steps toward firing on the boats, which approached to within 500 yards, but the Iranians suddenly fled back toward their shore, Cosgriff said.

Cosgriff was not precise about the U.S. ships' location but indicated they were about three miles outside Iran's territorial waters, which extend 12 miles from its shores, headed in a westerly direction after having passed the narrowest point in the straits.

At one point the U.S. ships received a threatening radio call from the Iranians, "to the effect that they were closing (on) our ships and that the ships would explode — the U.S. ships would explode," Cosgriff said.

"Subsequently, two of these boats were observed dropping objects in the water, generally in the path of the final ship in the formation, the USS Ingraham," he added. "These objects were white, box-like objects that floated. And, obviously, the ship passed by them safely."

The boxes were not retrieved, so U.S. officials do not know whether they posed an actual threat. Cosgriff the U.S. ship commanders were moving through a standard series of actions — including radio calls to the Iranians that went unheeded — but did not reach the point of firing warning shots.

"We take this deadly seriously," Cosgriff told a Pentagon news conference via video link from Bahrain.

He recalled the October 2000 terrorist attack on a U.S. warship, the USS Cole, in Yemen's Aden harbor by a small boat laden with explosives; 17 sailors died in that attack, which nearly sank the Cole.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking aboard the USS New Orleans pierside in San Diego, told reporters on Monday "it would be nice to see the Iranian government disavow this action and say that it won't happen again."

Gates said there had been two or three similar incidents — "maybe not quite as dramatic" — over the past year. He offered no details, but one Navy official said there have been several similar incidents that involved "aggressive maneuvering" by small boats in the Gulf. In one instance, a U.S. Navy vessel fired warning shots across the bow of the small boat, said the official, who requested anonymity because details of the earlier encounters have not been made public.

The official said that while at least one of the small boats in the Sunday confrontation was flying an Iranian flag, that was not the case in the earlier incidents. Thus, while there is suspicion that they may have been Iranian boats, it is not certain.

The latest incident began Sunday about 8 a.m. local time and lasted about 30 minutes, Cosgriff said. It was followed on Monday by an unusual but apparently unrelated incident in which two U.S. Navy F/A-18 fighter jets were destroyed in an aerial collision over the northern Gulf. The three aviators involved were plucked safely from Gulf waters and returned to their ship, the USS Harry Truman.

In Tehran, Iran's Foreign Ministry suggested the Iranian boats had not recognized the U.S. vessels. Spokesman Mohammed Ali Hosseini played down the incident, saying it was "similar to past ones."

"That is something normal that takes place every now and then for each party, and it (the problem) is settled after identification of the two parties," he told the state news agency IRNA.

In his remarks to Pentagon reporters, Cosgriff said U.S. Navy ships routinely have contact with Iranian naval vessels and that usually the correct procedures are followed without confrontation. In fact he said the three-ship Navy convoy involved in Sunday's incident had earlier exchanged normal communications with some Iran shore stations and with a passing Iranian Navy ship.

Joseph Cirincione, director of nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, said in a telephone interview that in the absence of hard information about Iranian intentions, it is possible that they viewed the presence of the American ships as a potential threat and were warning them away.

On the other hand, it may have been a deliberate Iranian provocation, Cirincione said.

At the State Department, spokesman Sean McCormack said the United States would "confront" hostile Iranian actions against U.S. interests and those of its allies in the region and called on Iran to halt "any provocative actions."

"We are going to confront Iran's behavior where it threatens us, where it threatens our allies, where it threatens the integrity of the international systems that have been set up to facilitate international commerce and finance," McCormack told reporters.

Historical tensions between the United States and Iran have grown in recent years over Washington's charge that Tehran has been secretly seeking to develop nuclear weapons and supplying and training Iraqi insurgents using roadside bombs — the No. 1 killer of U.S. troops in Iraq.

At about this time last year, Bush announced he was sending a second aircraft carrier to the Gulf region in a show of force against Iran. The U.S. Navy quietly scaled back to one carrier group several months later. But while the two were there, they staged two major exercises off Iran's coast.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I posted this story in the http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/us-military-news-thread-33-1547.html.

Glad you started a thread on this subject. I hope this takes off in a civilized manner.

Crazy sez;

This isn't good. Regardless of who the aggressor was (in this case it is Iran) there should be open communication between the two naval forces so an incident like this doesn't happen, as it can spiral out of control and the consequences will be devastating for both the US and Middle East.

I can tell you from my own experience that there are many boats from various nations in the Persian Gulf. Some are refered to as dhows. Many cases have involved Iran over the last 25+ years. In many other cases these boats are unidentified unless confronted. The USN and other navies regulary conduct VBSS(Vist Board Search Seizure)missions checking these various boats for contraband in the Gulf. Apparently, according to the Pentagon, these boats made threating radio communictions with the USN ships. The CO's of those ships have no recourse but to take action to protect their ships. Fortunaley the Iranian boats widthdrew before any "Shooting" started.

Much lesser incidents confronting various vessels in the Gulf take place almost daily involving the USN.

I'm thankful that this incident did not esclate to shots being fired by either side.
 
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crazyinsane105

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Yes thank God no shots were fired. However popeye, I'm just wondering...in the event that had shots were fired, what would've happened? Say for example the worst case scenario being that all the patrol ships (how many were there, three or five) each had two anti-ship missiles that they launched. At a range of five hundred yards, would the three US ships been able to defend itself from say six to fifteen missiles (C-701 or C-801) flying towards it? And what would be the general response of the USN? Just wondering...
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Yes thank God no shots were fired. However popeye, I'm just wondering...in the event that had shots were fired, what would've happened? Say for example the worst case scenario being that all the patrol ships (how many were there, three or five) each had two anti-ship missiles that they launched. At a range of five hundred yards, would the three US ships been able to defend itself from say six to fifteen missiles (C-701 or C-801) flying towards it? And what would be the general response of the USN? Just wondering...

They might have been facing an INS Hanit situation, where they didn't have their CIWS up and running. Would a C-701 or C-801 even be able to get into sea skimming mode and lock on within 500yards? If so, then those ships probably would have been crippled/destroyed. The USN would try to sink the boats. Then they probably would have targeted any Iranian Navy vessels that they could find, certainly at sea, probably those in port too. That much would be required as retaliation. Other that that the target list would probably up to the Pentagon. If there were any American carriers in the Gulf this would put them in a bind. They would be stuck in the Gulf's shallow waters, easy to find and vunerable to subs, shore batteries of AShMs and every other assymetric threat the Iranians could throw at them. However they would be forced to stay there for a while because the Straits would certainly be closed.

If this scenario you are describing did happen, it would probably be in conjunction with wider Iranian operations (they wouldn't just attack a few ships and waste the element of surprise), so we would see a rapid escalation of just the type that both nations (or at least the people of both nations) want to avoid.
 

panzerkom

Junior Member
That's what I would describe as "being stupid."

The feeling i got from the CNN story this morning is that the Iranian patrol boats were more like coast guard cutters instead of missile armed FACs, but we'll probably get more on that later.

I sincerely hope that the Iranians won't be dumb enough to hand Bush an excuse to wipe them out. The last thing we need is $200 oil and $6 gas.
 

alwaysfresh

New Member
Tonkin Gulf incident.

Someone posted that this incident would have allowed by military action responds and would be given to the public in accepting a preemptive non-congress approved war.

From what Iran seems to want --> "No War", because they would be hit hard, Iran is no where close to being able to match the US military. I am sure the Iran boats were patrolling and then saw the ships coming in close and directed their boats closer to shore to prevent an incident.
 

unknauthr

Junior Member
Two Militaries

What has been less well publicized is that Iran has two militaries: the regular armed forces, and the Revolutionary Guard. One is a traditional military with appropriate lines of command and discipline, the other is a wild card. This particular incident involved the wild card. We're all just luck that it didn't turn into a shooting match - and an excuse for the US to take wider action in Iran.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Apparently, according to the Pentagon, these boats made threating radio communictions with the USN ships. The CO's of those ships have no recourse but to take action to protect their ships. Fortunaley the Iranian boast widthdrew before any "Shooting" started.

I'm thankful that this incident did not esclate to shots being fired by either side.
I believe this was a staged, coordinated provocation, testing the US Navy's reaction time and limits, probably by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. A very dangerous development.

It is my understanding that the three US vessesls were a Tico class CG, a Burke class DDG, and a Perry class FFG. In other words, two Aegis class vessels.

It is also my understanding that the US commander on the scene was in contact with his superiors and received authorization to protect his ships but that by that time the Iranians had turned away.

No way should the US ships have allowed five very dangerous and threatening (broadcasting threatening radio messages and dropping some type of containers into the water in the path of the US ships causing them to take hard evasive action) vessels like these to close within 200 yeards of the US ships.

Anyhow. if shots had been fired, it is my guess that all five of the vessels would have been sunk before they could damage the US ships. At 200 yards, they had probably closed too close for proper arming of their own missiles (if they had any) and nothing but gun fire would have sufficed at that point. With the US Navy vessels having 3 rapid fire five inch guns, probably 2-5 25mm guns, and multiple .50 cal machine guns trained on the Iranians, it would have been over very quickly.

The real question, IMHO, is what would have happened thereafter. IOW, how far would the Iranians been willing to go in response...and what was their plan, ie. in terms of trying to shut down the straits and attack commercial shipping.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Excellent post gents! Excellent.

Yes thank God no shots were fired. However popeye, I'm just wondering...in the event that had shots were fired, what would've happened?

There would have been 5 sunk Iranian boats. Period. Read what Jeff posted;
Anyhow. if shots had been fired, it is my guess that all five of the vessels would have been sunk before they could damage the US ships. At 200 yards, they had probably closed too close for proper arming of their own missiles (if they had any) and nothing but gun fire would have sufficed at that point. With the US Navy vessels having 3 rapid fire five inch guns, probably 2-5 25mm guns, and multiple .50 cal machine guns trained on the Iranians, it would have been over very quickly.


Finn sez;
They might have been facing an INS Hanit situation, where they didn't have their CIWS up and running.

Finn the USN does not operate like that since the USS Cole incident in 2000. CIC(Combat Information Center) is always manned and ready to do their job.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
I am sure the Iran boats were patrolling and then saw the ships coming in close and directed their boats closer to shore to prevent an incident.

Really, then why was one of the Iranian captains reporting as saying (something along the lines of) "we're coming at you and you'll explode in a couple minutes"?

What I would suggest is that someone in the Iranian military, or maybe even the government, is trying to stir up trouble by provoking the Amercians into firing first. What these vessels did was brinkmanship - it's so stupid.
 
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