Modern CIWS & Anti-Missile Systems (Deployed and in development)

Scratch

Captain
now I used google to search for maximal g an AAM can pull, found this interesting article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(I mean interesting for me :) maybe you know all what's inside ...)

I somehow think that the author is twisting definitons and math a little bit to fit his impression of BVR combat being useless.
WVR, in my mind, is the area in which a human's eyeballs are able to find and track another aircraft, so around 5NM maybe. Even though IRST use the visible / IR spectrum, they're electronic means like radar. So saying BVR only starts beyond 35km because IRST can look that far is off, IMO.
While the pure mathematics on the missile g vs target g work out, they do so in an irrelevant scenrio. That is the missiles chasing the target while remaining on their turn circle. In BFM, that makes sense. Driving into a firing position were you retain a reasonably low aspect angle to avoid an overshoot / being forced into a quaterplane maneuver.
A missile, if in a chase in the first place, will pull the appropriate amount of "lead", or "pure persuit" in older missiles, to ensure they meat at a certain time in space at the same time. With the missile pulling into the aircraft's turn circle, that will produce lots of aspect quickly. And in case the missile misses, it will be an irrecoverable overshoot. However, it also means the missile will not require 200+g for a succesfull intercept.

The author explains a missile can pull much less g at altitude, were the air in thinner. That is also true for jets. I'm quite certain F-16s / MiG-29s won't pull 9g for any proper amount of time at 40.000ft. On the other hand, a missile's range is much greater at high altitude than at sea-level.

Furthermore, the No Escape Zone is not strictly bound to the motor burn out time. Depending on the missile's and target's energy state, the missile might still be able to achieve a hit on an evasively maneuvering target after burn-out.

If you can get the enemy focused on a certain group of your fighters, another group might get in the position to launch (passively via Link-16 handoff) without the target knowing. So since it's then not maneuvering, the missiles have a greater chance of hitting BVR.
If the target is aware of you, you can still force it to maneuver to defeat the missiles, trying to use that to position yourself favourably.

Back to the original, missiles have been hitting wildly maneuvering targets in the past. For modern AAMs there's figures of between 40-60g I think.
 
... And AShM like Klub doesn't have pilot inside who could pass out , ...

I concur in that :) but I've heard about some Ju-87 pilot who used to pass out while dive-bombing, so his Stuka was modified accordingly (I think the dive brakes were set to pull automatically after some delay, but don't quote me)
 
Last edited:

Scratch

Captain
Yes it does, because missiles don't have infinite time or energy for intercept . Read the link that Jura posted, and you would understand that AAM missiles need to pull much more g then target , loosing energy in process . And AShM like Klub doesn't have pilot inside who could pass out , therefore it could perform pretty sharp maneuvers.

The solution to this is the system controlling the launch sequence knowing the distance. Launch will only be initiated once the target is in range of the missile of course. Much in the same way a rifle bullet can hit a target without the bullet knowing the distance. Because you'd only fire your rifle after you know the target is in range.

For the ships in a group, wich should normally be spread out somewhat, in the terminal stage the missile will have to come towards that ship eventually, not having the ability to do a 90° turn away and then back to face it in a few seconds. For an object at M1 doing one 90° turn with 10g takes 5 1/2 seconds, at M2 11sec.

Dispersal patterns of Phalanx and Goalkeeper are certainly not the same as on M-61 or GAU-8, as they have different roles . Check this, for example

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Is that specifcly related to Phalanx / Goalkeeper development? The text isn't clear on that in my mind. Or is it a patent for a generic application?
 
Last edited:
The solution to this is the system controlling the launch sequence knowing the distance. Launch will only be initiated once the target is in range of the missile of course. Much in the same way a rifle bullet can hit a target without the bullet knowing the distance. Because you'd only fire your rifle after you know the target is in range.

For the ships in a group, wich should normally be spread out somewhat, in the terminal stage the missile will have to come towards that ship eventually, not having the ability to do a 90° turn away and then back to face it in a few seconds. For an object at M1 doing one 90° turn with 10g takes 5 1/2 seconds, at M2 11sec.

yeah but maybe AShM could be sent to set-off your CIWS (by coming within just the range (of let's say 2 km) but preprogrammed to leave it right after that) ... or it's not that easy? :)
 

Scratch

Captain
?? Well I guess it could. And then what? The missile is going away, no threat for the ship. Do you want to fly circles until all the ammo is expanded? I somehow don't think a massive furball of AShM within the enemy formation of ships is the solution.
 
sorry I didn't finish my thought from http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/wor...s-deployed-development-5-4350.html#post320060 (I was distraught by a phone-call):

?? Well I guess it could. And then what? ...

then another missile(s) would follow from the same direction, which then would likely be unprotected if this was a saturation-attack (the CIWS likely would start shooting at some other missile in the meantime) ... but now I think I suggested this maybe one year ago here, and I think people have told me this doesn't matter since I assume a saturation attack (?) sorry again :)
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
The solution to this is the system controlling the launch sequence knowing the distance. Launch will only be initiated once the target is in range of the missile of course. Much in the same way a rifle bullet can hit a target without the bullet knowing the distance. Because you'd only fire your rifle after you know the target is in range.

RAM radar would certainly know the distance, but without command guidance missile will not . Even if AShM files straight and level, IR guided missile intercepting would not . It would instead fly on curved path :
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Relative bearing of AShM viewed from IR missile would change dramatically when tehy get close , let's say 1-2 km apart, and AShM suddenly starts making wild turns .


For the ships in a group, wich should normally be spread out somewhat, in the terminal stage the missile will have to come towards that ship eventually, not having the ability to do a 90° turn away and then back to face it in a few seconds. For an object at M1 doing one 90° turn with 10g takes 5 1/2 seconds, at M2 11sec.

Now imagine group of ships spread out 3-4 km , and AShM going initially to right side of group, then at approximately 5km ( from the center of the group) turning left and going for left most ship , and then suddenly turning back right and going to center of the group , meanwhile changing height (going up and down constantly) . Entirely possible .


Is that specifcly related to Phalanx / Goalkeeper development? The text isn't clear on that in my mind. Or is it a patent for a generic application?

I think it's generic .
 

Scratch

Captain
I don't challange RAM not knowing a distance, I challange the necessitiy of it needing to. Once the target has approached close enough for the RAM flight path to be short enough so the missile can retain enough energy to complete a maneuvering intercept, range info is not neccessary to solve the mathematical problems of bringing together two maneuvering objects at one point in space and time. It may allow a little more energy conservation during approach (mid-course), but that would only allow to expant the engagement envelope a little, not be the enabling factor for the intercept as such.
Btw, even a command guided missile won't know any distances, it just get's steeting info that may or may not be also based on system generated range info.

Since the whole point of PN is to set a zero LOS rate, relative bearing being constant, to get on a collision course that means that as long as the target is in straight-and-level, unaccelerated flight, the interceptor won't have to adjust. Thus, against a non-maneuvering target a PN guided interceptor will naturally also fly in a straight line. Now since the interceptor will decelerate after burn-out, it's velocity-vector is going to change, initiating a LOS rate in the target and forcing the interceptor to adjust. However, since that deceleration is gradual and not sudden, the required adjustments, and therefore the curve in the flight path, will be minute.

2q15s9i.jpg

Each colored segment representing a 1sec timeframe. The green-white AShM @ M 1,5; the red-blue RAM constantly changing (average M1 2,3 2,5 2,3 2,1 2 1,9 1,8 1,7).

Then another visualization:
2elw6yb.jpg


AShM at M1 (blue), M1,5 (green) and M2 (yellow) 10g constantly, instant g-onset; with the black rings representing 2, 3.5 and 9km. Each colored segment representing an accumulated 45° of change in direction, taking 2,25s, 4,15s and 5,05s respectively. The radii are for maneuvering in the horizontal plane only and would change a bit when the vertical is used also. But it gives an impression of the scale of the maneuvers. With anything going past M1.5 you can't do that much maneuvering inside 5km anymore. It would be rather short and snappy maneuvers more akin to jinking rather then high performance turns. That is more suited to defeat gun attempts rather than missiles. And since it makes the missile a relevant threat to more than one ship, it will likely draw fires from multiple CIWS, perhaps increasing the chance that one will hit.

Finally, the intercept. Top one launched at beginning of sequence on a constant collision course. Lower two after first two segments of AShM complete with the middle RAM homing and the bottom one again on collision.
4h9s0w.jpg


What all this is supposed to be is to say I don't see how a gun has an advantage over a guided missile on the grounds that shorter range /higher speed (of unguided projectiles) provide increased accuracy.
And to a lesser extent that I don't see actual gun CIWS producing a litteral wall or net of lead on the sole argument that the generic tech to do so is existant.

Maybe we disagree. :)
 
Last edited:

thunderchief

Senior Member
Since the whole point of PN is to set a zero LOS rate, relative bearing being constant, to get on a collision course that means that as long as the target is in straight-and-level, unaccelerated flight, the interceptor won't have to adjust. Thus, against a non-maneuvering target a PN guided interceptor will naturally also fly in a straight line.

You got that mixed up :D If interceptor goes straight and level (same as AShM) it would need to know exact point AND time of collision . Moment later and moment before, it would miss . To solve that equation , it would have to know distance between itself and AShM . It is not the same if you have AShM at 30 degrees bearing 5 km away , or at 30 degrees 7km away .

The radii are for maneuvering in the horizontal plane only and would change a bit when the vertical is used also. But it gives an impression of the scale of the maneuvers. With anything going past M1.5 you can't do that much maneuvering inside 5km anymore.

Actually, even at fastest scenario (Mach 2 ) AShM moves from left to right of task force (group of ships) . Although maneuver looks "shallow " , what RAM sees is one dot moving from left to right very fast .



It would be rather short and snappy maneuvers more akin to jinking rather then high performance turns. That is more suited to defeat gun attempts rather than missiles. And since it makes the missile a relevant threat to more than one ship, it will likely draw fires from multiple CIWS, perhaps increasing the chance that one will hit.


Finally, the intercept. Top one launched at beginning of sequence on a constant collision course. Lower two after first two segments of AShM complete with the middle RAM homing and the bottom one again on collision.

Well, closest one is unrealistic (RAM would not have enough time to accelerate ) . Middle one is clear miss . Longest one is what actually happens , ie SAM would have biggest chance to hit AShM if it could lock on it as far away from ship as possible , but there you have problem of sensors range , Earth curvature etc ...


What all this is supposed to be is to say I don't see how a gun has an advantage over a guided missile on the grounds that shorter range /higher speed (of unguided projectiles) provide increased accuracy.
And to a lesser extent that I don't see actual gun CIWS producing a litteral wall or net of lead on the sole argument that the generic tech to do so is existant.

For gun , all it have to do is approximate last 1-2km of AShM path , and "close" it with rounds for 1-2 sec .
 

Scratch

Captain
Yet, so many sources, to include your wiki article, say different. There's another application for this as well. Avoiding a mid air collision. If you're flying into a traffic pattern especially, were there's a high traffic density, you look out for other aircraft entering from a different point. If you spot one and realize it's not moving for or aft, constant relative bearing, then you know that if neither you nor he change course you will hit. The same works out for ships at sea. Constant Bearing Decreasing Range. Neither a small aircraft nor a small boat will have radar providing range info.
This works out in reverse as well. If you see another aircraft and then maneuver yours to hold the other guy at a constant relative bearing, you will collide. Both of you flying a straight line after the constant bearing has been set. With noone having range info. Neither the aviator nor a missile AI know or need to know a value for place or time of a future collision point. As long as one keeps the other on a constant relative bearing, their paths will intersect. For non-maneuvering objects, that means a straight line for both of them.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Conflict Detection
Using a line of constant bearing between converging traffic is one of the simplest tools available to a radar controller to detect potential collisions between aircraft.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The “Blossom Effect”
Motion is invaluable in drawing the eye’s attention. Yet two aircraft on a collision course will appear virtually motionless to each other, or maintain a constant relative bearing (CRB). When observed from the cockpit, the conflicting target will look like a small, stationary speck until it is at a distance from which it may be too close to react to, when it suddenly appears to grow much larger, a phenomenon called the “blossom effect.” If a pilot sees an aircraft that remains in the same spot in the windshield (unless it is directly ahead and moving in the same direction), there is a high probability the two aircraft will collide unless one changes course. Once a threat has been identified, it’s essential to keep the other aircraft in sight until the threat is resolved. That may require turning toward the target to maintain visual contact.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If you see an airplane, first determine whether it is moving in your field of vision. An airplane that has no relative motion is an airplane that you stand a chance of hitting. The old nautical saying that applies here is "a steady bearing off the bow": if it isn't moving right or left in your field of vision, your paths are going to converge. It may be approaching you, or you may be overtaking it -- and yes, you can overtake other aircraft, even if you're flying a common training aircraft like a Piper Cherokee or Cessna 172.


Further visualized in the two images below:

Img 1 shows objects A and B moving at the same speed. At the same point in time the angle from A to B is always constant at 12.5° while range changes.
Img 2 shows A moving at 1,5 times the speed of B. With the angle between the two remaining at 23.25° through a constantly decreasing range, they will meet at the same point in time and space.
They have no other chance actually. The triangles that form in every timeframe are similar to each other and will form the next one by simply scaling up or down.

sg0qh3.jpg

2hdv11v.jpg


If you don't believe these publications, go to a flight school and ask any instructor. If that's not enough take up flight lessons and try it out. It actually and really does work in real live.

I'm wondering if you have "homing" in mind when you make your statments perhaps? The wiki article erroneously describes PN as a guidance law used in some form or another by most homing air target missiles. Homing and PN are two distinct methods of navigation / guidance.
Homing has the missile aim for the targeted objects at all time and simply chase it. That is an older and rather ineffective way, since it'll indeed force the interceptor into a constant maneuver even when going after a non-maneuvering target.
The whole point of PN is to have the interceptor act smarter and aim in front of the target.


A threat going very fast from left to right isn't an issue, since lateral movement won't bring it closer to the ship. Eventually, when finally going to attack a ship within a group, the AShM will have to go towards that ship. That inevitably decreases the rate of lateral movement.

For objects 3m above the surface earth-curvature becomes an issue at just beyond 12km, so any CIWS should be fine.

The center intercept, displaying the non-efficient homing geometry is ment to display a miss indeed. However, I don't see the issue with the bottom (PN) one, that actually takes place at the same range and from the explanation takes maybe 6-7 seconds to complete. For the Sidewinder rocket motor I can find figures of between 2.2 and 5 seconds burn time. Meaning there's enough time for the missile to acelerate to max speed before the intercept.
Going from 0 to M2.5 in 5sec requires an average acceleration of 17,5g, meaning a linear acceleration will take place in 2150m. In realitly, with acceleration being slower at higher speeds it'll be longer. But not by that much.
 
Last edited:
Top