Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

In any discussion about sinking a carrier one first needs to define the rules. Are you talking about open ocean scenario - one fleet versus the other (carrier) fleet? Or is it a carrier approaching a coastline scenario, where the attacker can use land assets and land based aircraft? In any case, i agree that today its next to impossible to actually ambush a carrier, at least by surface or air based assets. One might actually pull it off with submarines but that too isn't very likely.
 

mpaduan79

New Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

battleships was killed after ww2..the last big ship near the size of a carrier is kirov battle cruiser design to attack and destroy a carrier group(ss-n 19 shipwreck) with it massive supersonic antiship amarment and can withstand a buzzing air attack due it aa & ew defense suit...but thats was in the 1980 and that time it was the deadliest armed to the teeth cruiser , let say we design back a total new battleship with current and near future tech-might work rater than a massive air assault , i thik tonight i will finish with that solution and part off the amarment...then you guy will try to help me to complete this new super battleship....that design to attack a carrier battle group cheers :coffee: ....
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

battleships was killed after ww2..the last big ship near the size of a carrier is kirov battle cruiser design to attack and destroy a carrier group(ss-n 19 shipwreck) with it massive supersonic antiship amarment and can withstand a buzzing air attack due it aa & ew defense suit...but thats was in the 1980 and that time it was the deadliest armed to the teeth cruiser , let say we design back a total new battleship with current and near future tech-might work rater than a massive air assault , i thik tonight i will finish with that solution and part off the amarment...then you guy will try to help me to complete this new super battleship....that design to attack a carrier battle group cheers :coffee: ....
Unless you design weapons systems into the vessel (like rail guns) that cannot be intercepted by the CSGs significant anti-air defenses, which extend far out around the carrier to almost the range of the anti-shipping missiles, and can be organized to send out further depending on the threat axis...then you are going to fail IMHO.

Then, you have to have a nation with the resources to build such a vessel and protect it so it can get in range of the carrier. That is why the Soviets did what they did...large, fast, bristling ships and lots of them, augmented by entire regiments of attack aircraft.

Even then, once the cold war was over, they wondered (and rightfully so) whether that doctrine would have enabled them to sink a carrier strike group...particularly if there were two carriers and all of their escorts in the group.

I will admit, that this is a danger that the US and other nations who operate carriers have to deal with. The US has developed the most state of the art system and the most effective missile shield available so an agressor would be charging into the teeth of the strongest part of the US defenses. Such a danger has to be considered...and IMHO, a potential agressor would be best suited to use such an attack as a diversion while they try and get sub-surface weaponry closer in to the strike group...but even there, they will be going up against significant and very well honed defenses in a wartime setting.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

While i'm not sure about the efficiency of the whole anti carrier battlecruiser concept, i'll go along with it here offer a few design guidelines which are, in my opinion, essential, for the concept to even have a chance of working.

In no particular order of importance, the guidelines are:

1. Be content with just denying the carrier the opportunity to sea access and denying it the opportunity to complete its mission. Just being out there in the open seas and preventing the carrier to move to a certain place can be victorious enough.

2. Use the fact that carrier, due to its hull shape requirement and all the processes going on on its deck, can not have a significantly lower RCS. You, on the other hand - can afford to make a fairly stealthy ship, regardless of its dimensions. While carrier's escort ships may feature low RCS, carrier will always be visible on radar from more or less maximum distance of a decent AEW platform. That doesn't solve the fact the battlecruiser group will almost surely be attacked by carrier's planes before the carrier is detected but i'll address the ramifications of that in my following points.

3. be FAST. Carrier by definition, due to its aircraft wing as the main weapons delivery platform, is much more flexible than you, and has a potentially much longer reach. If you are not faster than the carrier group, what will happen is that the CG will just dance circles around you and prick you with their longer reach, slowly, if needed, till they wear you out. (or in a quick punch, if you're weak enough) While trumping the speed of the carrier itself may be very hard, it might be enough to trump the speed of its escort ships. Without them, no captain would dare to send his carrier anywhere. Trouble, of course, is - when the enemy (CG owners) realize your fleet is faster, they will surely design an answer - bigger (even if that means fewer of them) escort ships that can match the speed of the carrier. As far as speed at sea goes, it seems that bigger has more potential to be faster. So in that race the winner is one with stronger economy which can offer more bigger vessels.

4. AEW assets of your own. They're absolutely essential. Have a platform which will be used for both monitoring the skies for incoming planes and monitoring seas for potential CG units. Save for building a carrier of your own, you are unfortunently unable to have aircraft for such a role. That's a big drawback but luckily - something like V-22 based AEW can help. While not perfect, it surely beats a helicopter based AEW. For illustration purposes, V22 has flight ceiling at some 7900 m, which would in normal circumstances provide for a 350-370 km max radar range for ship detection. Speed is also a bit slower than E2 but it's acceptable. Flight endurance would probably clock in at some 3.5-4 hours - not that good but better than a helo. It is also large, meaning it needs a large landing pad and a large hangar if we are to house 3 of them on our cruiser, which is in my opinion the minimum we need for a single cruiser. (in a two cruiser formation 2 such AEWs per ship would be enough)

5a. AA protection. Have a long, long, long reach SAM. Since, unlike the carrier, you have no fighter protection - those are the only protection you will have for your AEWs. That also means you will not be able to venture out with your AEWs too far away from the cruiser. (with that pitiful flight endurance maybe it's for the better) Something like navalized s-400 would be required. Again, there's a great likelyhood that enemy designers will then start using very long range AAMs to deal with your AEWs. Honestly, i see that as perhaps the biggest hurdle to the whole cruiser concept as longer range SAMS (500-600 or more km of range) would be huge and heavy and, realistically, E2 will always spot our V22 first, before our V22 can spot the E2. There's also the top limit of SAM range, as we can't shoot anything that goes over the range of our v22 based radar.

5b. A good idea would probably be making specialized v22 like planes with long range AAMs but not only would that require even more cruisers (as AEW space in hangars would be eaten by AAM carrying planes) but the large, cumbersone and slow V22 would be harder to evade a missile than the fighters attacking it would be able to evade missiles fired at them. Alternatively, one could house something like f-35b on our cruiser but only only would they be at a disadvantage to carrier's f35c (remember, our f-35b would have to take off vertically - reducing its payload and range even further than it is reduced compared to C version) but there'd be less of them, probably greatly outnumbered. Yes, one could add a deck with skyjump ramp for f-35b to use their full potential but that goes against the whole 'lets use a battlecruiser against carrier instead of carrier against carrier' assumption and goes to prove that carrier, indeed, may be the best platform to battle another carrier in the open ocean.

6. Cost. If we stay with SAMs for selfdefence, we can keep our carrier smaller, mostly due to less hangar room and less personnel. Also it'd make it cheaper. Another big selling point is to keep the crew number low. Unlike the 3-5 thousand crew on the carrier, our cruiser could have much much smaller crew. That, in my opinion is the biggest positive thing in the whole concept. Unlike the carrier, which is MASSIVELY expensive not just to build but, more importantly, to operate - due to its planes, the maintenance and thousands of people on salary - for the same money one could have several battlecruisers operating against every enemy carrier. Using cruisers, we are already at a design advantage, as our platform was designed as efficient as possible for the role of killing a carrier. The carrier on the other hand, going against us has to have a 'baggage' of cost and equipment that is not needed for killing surface vessels. Though, realistically, it would not take a lot of time for the commanders to make the carriers optimized against surface vessels and ignoring most of the ground attack and landing support missions.

7. Battlegroups? Like the carrier has its battlegrooup, it is essential that the cruiser has its. At minimum, it should have nuclear submarines with it, like a carrier does - so it can defend from the possible submarine attack in a more efficient manner. As that is not enough, cruiser should have helicopters dedicated for ASW. Now, we could use smaller ships for that, or, which may be better in light of the need for long speed and long range needed for our entire fleet - we should house those helicopters on the cruisers itself. That automatically means we need more cruisers but it's never a bad thing that we have more targets for the enemy. Plus we can afford it with the lower cost of our fleet. Downside is that, whereas we could've been okay with just a small helo pad for the rotation of AEWs in the air - here we would need a larger helopad allowing near simultaneous operations of, lets say, a AEW taking off and an ASW helo landing. Also, potentially very useful, though kinda going against the battlecruiser concept, is a sub designed to carry large, vertically launched antiship missiles. A mix of cruiser based and sub based missile platforms could, in my opinion provide for best chances for success.

8. anti carrier weapons. In some distant future i'm sure electromagnetic guns will come here as the weapon of choice, but until then i would say missiles have the edge over any kind of guns, be they even something like the guns and ammo considered for the zumwalt class. Anyhow, the missile must have as long range as possible - so the carrier has less time and space to make a response. If we combine the 350 radar range from our V22, with the fact the v22 itself would probably be around 100 km in front of our ship (not more, due to limitation of our SAM umbrella) To that we need to add a safety margin, in case the target is in position to start running away at greatest speed. All in all - its a requirement for a missile with 450-500 km range. I believe that a brahmos class missile (pure ramjet) with a large enough rocket booster is quite capable of achieving that while keeping the total length to some 10 meters and total weight to under 5 tons. Also, though missile could be somewhat smaller if we fire it at 45 deg angle, the under deck space such an accomodation would require is too costly. Not to mention the commonality of the VLS with super long range SAMs would also be quite beneficial. If missile travelled at 3000 km/h (comparable to brahmos) over a distance of 500 km - it would require 12 mins to reach its target. Not enough time for target to sail too far away, either for missile's seeker or for whole missile to reach it. But I wouldn't dare using slower and/or longer ranged missiles than that.

Well, that's that. I'm sure i forgot important stuff but what can you do. A cruiser battlegroup of some 3 battlecruisers and 2 SSGNs could be operated for the price of one usual sized nimitz class carrier group. Roughly speaking, of course. Just how would the conflict in an open ocean go and who'd win - we'll, im not sure, i guess we'll have to wait till someone builds this and tries it out. :)
 

ger_mark

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

2 torpedos and its gone

just lay some submarines at the ground of the ocean and your submarine wont have a problem at detecting a carrier at passive mode within a radius of 50 km, thats close enough to fire a couple of torpedos and say goodbye
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The problem is that today, sensor technology has improved to a point that in essence, any ship afloat on the surface can be theoretically tracked. A well organized CAP, plus good communication coupled to modern technology will detect a surface group from a very long range. Back in World War II, they did not have AEW. They did not have radar sets built into every airplane. They did not have modern data links. They did not have satellite reconnaissance.

What did Kurita blunder into? A escort carrier task force. An airplane had already spotted his ships and had alerted the task force. With modern technology, due to increased sensor range and coverage (no longer limited and restricted to visual range) and increased range of aircraft, a carrier can detect targets at a much further range than any anti-ship missile available today. For example, the E-2 Hawkeye, the primary eyes of the American and French CVBG's is capable to of tracking more than 2000 targets (while at the same time, detecting 20,000 simultaneously) and controlling the interception of 40 hostile targets at ranges over 550km. One radar sweep by an E-2 Hawkeye covers 6 million cubic miles. So imagine around the carrier, a detection bubble of over 550km around a carrier. Nothing enters that bubble without being detected that is either in the air or on the surface. If a large surface force entered my radar scope, and was radiating a electronic signal (which a ship will with its radar and ESM suite will), I would have something go over and fly over the group and determine if it is hostile. Once I have the information in hand that the target is hostile, I can then turn tail away, and prepare a strike with my aircraft against the group.

Kurita was spotted by an aircraft on anti-submarine patrol moments before he opened fire, although there was confusion in identification intially. Just as he was detected on radar, shells were already splashing around the task force. Even then, there was still confusion, and many thought that Kurita's force was Task Force 34, which was the battle line and supporting units of the 3rd Fleet. He ran into three escort carrier task forces, which combined could muster a sizeable amount of aircraft.

The problem, ultimately, as you said, is the development of better detection equipment and techniques. It places the attacking force at a disadvantage initially. However,I think that creativity and a good strategy (one which involves division of forces) which is also bold has a chance to succeed. The attacking surface force can be in EMCON 1 to avoid detection of their sensors and ECM equipment. The initial air attack by the carrier force attacking from the opposite direction can include a fighter squadron whose sole goal it is to take out all AEW assets. The main carrier force can be located to draw the enemy fleet into an area close to land and false intel can be "leaked" to convince the enemy that the bulk of the forces are in that main carrier force. Using the land, lack of emissions, and possibly also taking advantage of weather conditions, the surface strike force can get perilously close to the enemy carrier force. The fight with the main carrier group will cause attrition in the enemy's air wing and many could be refueling/rearming at the time of attack or on their return trip (the latter is preferable), and the bulk of the aircraft would be fighting that force, allowing for minimal resistance by aircraft when the surface force attacks, which would of course result in its detection. If the surface force is handled correctly up to this time, the force could be close enough to do damage, and the use of good surface tactics could cause considerable damage among the enemy carrier force and very likely result in sunk carriers. This attack can be combined with a sub and air attack on the enemy force.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Average depth of the ocean is about 2 miles deep
Average depth a sub can dive to without being crushed is about 1500ft
Please, be our guest and park your subs on the ocean bed. You'll need to hire Dr Ballard to find them again though, and I hope you paid for a good insurance policy...

Oh and two torpedos in the side of a Nimitz isn't even going to slow it down, let alone sink it. They're good for sinking 5,000ton DDGs and Frigates, but 90,000+tons of CVN is a whole different ball game...
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Average depth of the ocean is about 2 miles deep
Average depth a sub can dive to without being crushed is about 1500ft
Please, be our guest and park your subs on the ocean bed. You'll need to hire Dr Ballard to find them again though, and I hope you paid for a good insurance policy...

Oh and two torpedos in the side of a Nimitz isn't even going to slow it down, let alone sink it. They're good for sinking 5,000ton DDGs and Frigates, but 90,000+tons of CVN is a whole different ball game...

Don't forget that a US CVBG is usually accompanied by a SSN. And what better way to fight a enemy sub is to have another sub look for it.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

It would take more than two torpedoes to sink a carrier. Carriers and battleships have extensive side-protection systems which are the best of their kind and very effective, and they also have tripple bottoms in the underwater defense systems and tend to have the structural strength to keep the ship from breaking apart if the keel is broken. US warships are also known for their excellent damage control facilities and good design in limiting flloding. Sinking very large warships is generally not an easy task. If the systems are already compromised due to damage from shells, bombs, and missiles, then two torpedoes might do the job, although it would likely depend on where they are hit.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Well, that's that. I'm sure i forgot important stuff but what can you do. A cruiser battlegroup of some 3 battlecruisers and 2 SSGNs could be operated for the price of one usual sized nimitz class carrier group. Roughly speaking, of course. Just how would the conflict in an open ocean go and who'd win - we'll, im not sure, i guess we'll have to wait till someone builds this and tries it out. :)

The Soviet did build those. In the 80's you have a Kiev class Aviation Cruiser for organic albeit limited Air Defence, ASW, and AEW; the Kirov Class Heavy Missile Cruiser, and the Slava Class Cruiser, a cheaper variant to the Kirov. These 3 ship class have 2things in common: large long range anti-ship missile batteries and a large long range missile batteries. These three ships are the center piece of a battle group consisting of Sovremenny and Udaloy destroyers and supplemeted by Oscar SSGNs, Backfire regiments, and Bear Recon aircraft.

Very formidable force yet the Soviets still have doubts about their survival in a conflict with a US carrier group. These ships were built around the Battle of the First Salvo
doctrine.

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The Soviet mission was therefore not necessarily to survive, but to survive just long enough to launch their missiles at the carriers. At a Feb. 1973 Soviet officers' briefing on anti-carrier warfare, Rear Adm. Yevgenii Semenov, then 5th Eskadra Chief of Staff, encapsulated this "battle of the first salvo" doctrine by saying, "[Soviet] ship attack groups need to use all weaponry for assaults on [U.S.] aerial attack groups: missiles, artillery, torpedoes, jet-propelled rockets-the whole lot!-since it is unlikely that anything will remain afloat after an air strike. We are kamikazes."
 
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