Military situation in the sino-indian border

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dingyibvs

Junior Member
Here is typical of their rant imagining phantom incursion and call for strong measure Symptomatic of "1962 syndrome"
How can they say incursion when the border is never delineate and ill define. And China never recognize Simla agreement or Mc Mahon line
India should count their blessing because China never believe in settling border with war. That is why they return to LAC. They should take page from Russia who give a bit of concession in Ussuri and reap the benefit of good relation with China
The McMahon Line is regarded by India as the legal national border, but China rejects the Simla Accord and the McMahon Line, contending that Tibet was not a sovereign state and therefore did not have the power to conclude treaties.
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Chinese maps show some 65,000 square kilometres (25,000 sq mi) of the territory south of the line as part of the
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, known as
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in China.
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Chinese forces briefly occupied this area during the
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of 1962. China does recognise a
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which closely approximates most of the "so called McMahon line" in the eastern part of its border with
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, according to a 1959 diplomatic note by Prime Minister
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.
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This kind of rant is not conducive for win win relationship. It only poison the atmosphere and deceive people. "Volk verdummung"

China chips away at India’s borderlands
By
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JUNE 19, 2017 7:00 AM (UTC+8)

Asia Times is not responsible for the opinions, facts or any media content presented by contributors. In case of abuse,
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.

Bite by kilometer-size bite, China is eating away at India’s Himalayan borderlands. For decades, Asia’s two giants have fought a bullet-less war for territory along their high-altitude border. Recently, though, China has become more assertive, underscoring the need for a new Indian containment strategy.

On average, China launches one stealth incursion into India every
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. Kiren Rijiju, India’s Minister of State for Home Affairs, says the People’s Liberation Army is actively intruding into vacant border space with the objective of occupying it. And according to a former top official with India’s Intelligence Bureau,
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nearly 2,000 square kilometers to PLA encroachments over the past decade.

The strategy underlying China’s actions is more remarkable than their scope. On land, like at sea, China uses civilian resources – herders, farmers, and grazers – as the tip of the spear.

Once civilians settle on contested land, army troops gain control of the disputed area, paving the way for the establishment of more permanent encampments or observation posts.

Similarly, in the South China Sea, China’s naval forces follow fishermen to carve out space for the reclamation of rocks or reefs. In both theaters, China has deployed no missiles, drones, or bullets to advance its objectives.

China’s non-violent terrestrial aggression has garnered less opposition than its
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, which has been challenged by the United States and under
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(albeit with little effect).

Indian leaders have at times even seemed to condone China’s actions. During a recent
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in Russia, for example, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that although China and India are at odds over borders, it was remarkable that “in the last 40 years, not a single bullet has been fired because of [it].” The Chinese foreign ministry responded by praising Modi’s “positive remarks.”

Moreover, Modi’s predecessor, Manmohan Singh, used to claim that, in their 5,000-year history, India and China fought only one war, in 1962. What this rose-tinted history failed to acknowledge was that China and India
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only after China annexed the buffer Tibet in 1951.

Given India’s accommodating rhetoric, it is easy to view the country as a paper tiger. While Modi has used the phrase “
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” as the motto of India-China cooperation, the PLA has continued its cynical territorial aggrandizement by translating that slogan into incremental advance. After spending so many years on the defensive, India must retake the narrative.

The first order of business is to abandon the platitudes. Modi’s calls for border peace and tranquility might be sincere, but his tone has made India look like a meek enabler.

If the tables were turned,and Indian forces were attempting to chip away at Chinese territory, the PLA would surely respond with more than words

China’s fast-growing trade surplus with India, which has doubled to almost $60 billion on Modi’s watch, has increased Chinese President Xi Jinping’s territorial assertiveness. The absence of clarity about the frontier – China reneged on a 2001 promise to exchange maps with India – serves as cover for the PLA’s aggression, with China denying all incursions and claiming that its troops are operating on “Chinese land.” But, by acquiescing on bilateral trade – the dumping of Chinese-made steel on the Indian market is just
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– India has inadvertently helped foot the bill for the PLA’s encirclement strategy.

China’s financial regional leverage has grown dramatically in the past decade, as it has become almost all Asian economies’ largest trade and investment partner. In turn, many of the region’s developing countries have moved toward China on matters of regional security and transport connectivity.

But, as
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, there remains plenty of room for India to engage in Asia’s economic development. A more regionally integrated Indian economy would, by default, serve as a counterweight to China’s territorial expansion.

India should also beef up its border security forces to become a more formidable barrier to the PLA. India’s under-resourced Indo-Tibetan Border Police, under the command of the home ministry, is little more than a doorman. Training and equipping these units properly, and placing them under the command of the army, would signal to China that the days of an open door are over.

If the tables were turned, and Indian forces were attempting to chip away at Chinese territory, the PLA would surely respond with more than words. But in many cases, Indian border police patrolling the area don’t even carry weapons. With such a docile response, China has been able to do as it pleases along India’s northern frontier. China’s support of the Pakistani military, whose forces often fire at Indian troops along the disputed Kashmir frontier, should be viewed in this light.

The PLA began honing its “salami tactics” in the Himalayas in the 1950s, when it sliced off the Switzerland-size Aksai Chin plateau. Later, China inflicted a humiliating defeat on India in the 1962 border war, securing peace, as a state mouthpiece
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in 2012, on its own terms. Today, China pursues a
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to borders, cutting off access to an adversary’s previously controlled territory and gradually surrounding it with multiple civilian and security layers.

Against this backdrop, the true sign of Himalayan peace will not be the holstering of guns, but rather the end of border incursions. India’s accommodating approach has failed to deter China. To halt further encroachments, India will need to bare its own teeth.

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I don't know why you guys complain about this. This type of reaction is exactly what '62 aimed to create--an irrational Indian fear of an inevitably unsustainable Chinese attack across the Himalayas. This results in the Indian military devoting a lot of resources defending a practically impenetrable barrier rather than e.g. spending resources developing their own MIC.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
times of india article about a face-off betwen chinese and indian armies in sikkim.

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So many grammatical and spelling errors.

So Chinese troops told Indians they can't enter China, so what? They have the power to do that.

Chinese troops destroy a couple on Indian bunkers, I'm assuming they are right on the border, so India wants to pull a forward deployment like in 62 again?

Basically they are complaining because they can't do anything about it, just a molehill.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is the Chinese version of the incident

The Chinese MoD confirms the conflict with the Indian army in Dong Lang, which would have prevented the road construction works on the Chinese side.

DDQ0HPSUwAAU6-j.jpg
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The Chinese army on Monday accused the Indian military of provoking
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in Sikkim, where the two sides were reportedly involved in a tense confrontation earlier this month.
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Indian and Chinese troops scuffled near the Doka La area in the first week of June, PTI reported earlier in the day quoting unnamed sources, before soldiers from Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) damaged bunkers on the Indian side.

The stand-off in Sikkim comes at a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi is in Washington and is expected to negotiate a deal to buy American surveillance drones and reinvigorate strategic ties, moves that could rile Beijing.

The confrontation in Sikkim snowballed with the Chinese side deciding to
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through Sikkim that Indian pilgrims take to travel to Tibet, according to the report.

The PLA had a different sequence of events, accusing Indian soldiers of interfering in its sovereignty.

“Recently, the Chinese side in the Donglang area for road construction, was blocked by the Indian Army line,” a late-night statement from the PLA said. “The construction of the above-mentioned roads by the Chinese side is entirely a sovereign act in its own territory, and the Indian side has no right to interfere.”


For decades, ties between India and China have remained fraught over stretches of their disputed Himalayan border and competing geo-political ambitions. The two sides fought a short but bloody border war in 1962.

On Monday, the PLA said the problem persisted despite a meeting between the two sides and the Indian military “unilaterally provoked trouble”.

“China is committed to developing bilateral relations between China and India, but also firmly defend their legitimate rights and interests. It is hoped that the Indian meet China halfway and do not take any complication of the border issue and jointly maintain the good momentum of development of bilateral relations,” the statement said.

According to the PTI report, the Indian Army twice asked the Chinese to join a flag meeting after the confrontation. Both requests were turned down before the Chinese side agreed to a meeting on June 20. It was then that they conveyed to their Indian counterparts that pilgrims would not be allowed to cross into Tibet.

The pilgrims were kept waiting till June 23 after which they returned to Gangtok, the capital of Sikkim, which is the only region where the border between India and China is demarcated, according to PTI.

The Line of Actual Control is the de-facto, 4,000-km long border that India and China share in regions that they both claim as their territory.

It is not the first time that a transgression has happened at Doka La, on the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.

Chinese forces had in November 2008 destroyed makeshift Indian army bunkers.

Earlier this year, Chinese helicopters entered Indian airspace in the Barahoti area of Uttarakhand.

(With PTI inputs)
 
times of india article about a face-off betwen chinese and indian armies in sikkim.

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The Chinese army on Monday accused the Indian military of provoking
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in Sikkim, where the two sides were reportedly involved in a tense confrontation earlier this month.
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Now it appears that the Indian troops were supposedly acting on behalf of Bhutan's unsettled border with China.
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India, China Stand-Off At Border Tri-Junction With Bhutan Continues
BY DEVIRUPA MITRA ON 29/06/2017

The incident is significant since the India-China boundary in Sikkim is not disputed and both sides have taken pride in not allowing border incidents to affect other aspects of the bilateral relationship.

New Delhi: While India has yet to issue an official statement on the border incidents with China at Sikkim that have led to the cancellation of the Mansarovar Yatra pilgrimage through the Nathu-la route, a high level meeting was held here on Wednesday and the Army chief is set to visit the border state on Thursday to get a first-hand sense of the stand-off between Indian and Chinese soldiers.

Representatives of the home ministry, Indian Army and Indo-Tibetan Border Police took part in the “high-level meeting” where they “took stock” of the tense situation on the India-China border in the Sikkim region.

Quoting unnamed official sources, PTI said that in first week of June, China had bulldozed an old bunker of the Indian army at the tri-junction of India, China and Bhutan in Sikkim. The Indian army had refused to remove the structure after being asked to do so by China. China, on its part, has alleged that Indian soldiers crossed the boundary into China to interfere with the construction of a road.

The incident took place in the Doko-La (or Donglong) tri-junction area, where India had earlier objected to the road that China is building towards Bhutan. The Chinese claim that they were constructing the road within their territory, which led to jostling between the two sides and demolition of the bunker.

The crisis came in to the public domain once China sent Indian pilgrims on their way to Kailash Mansarovar in Tibet back from the Nathu-la border post last week.

Curiously, while the Chinese foreign ministry has been active in giving its side of the story, there has been no official response from India so far, despite the situation lingering for the past one week.

The second pilgrimage route had been started after a request from Prime Minister Narendra Modi to Chinese President Xi Jinping three years ago. Therefore, the curtailment of the pilgrimage is being seen as a major escalation from the Chinese side, especially since both countries have insisted all these years that the border dispute has never been allowed to spill over into other aspects of the burgeoning bilateral relationship. The decision to stop the movement of pilgrims was announced by Chinese PLA officers in their meeting with the Indian army on June 20.

The incident was also significant as it takes place in the Sikkim sector, where the border is settled. The earlier stand-offs between soldiers from the two sides have usually taken place in the western and eastern sectors, where the status of the boundary remains unresolved.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Lu Kang said on Wednesday that the suspension of the pilgrimage route was “an emergency response to the situation there”.

“I want to stress that Indian pilgrims’ trip to Xi Zang [the Tibet Autonomous Region] requires necessary atmosphere and conditions. The Indian side is to blame for the trip not being able to take place as scheduled. As for when the pilgrimage route will reopen, it totally depends on whether the Indian side can correct its mistake in time,” he said.

On Tuesday, the Chinese foreign ministry spokesman said in response to a question that delineation of China’s boundary with India at Sikkim was based on a 127-year-old treaty signed between the Qing empire and Great Britain – the Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1890.

“Both China and the successive Indian governments recognise that the Sikkim section has been delimited. It has been confirmed by the Indian leader, the relevant Indian government document and the Indian delegation at the special representatives’ meeting with China on the boundary question that India and China share [a] common view on the 1890 convention’s stipulation on the boundary alignment at the Sikkim section. To observe the relevant convention and document is the inescapable international obligation of the Indian side,” said Lu.

On this question, there is no disagreement from the Indian side. According to Ranjit S. Kalha, a former Indian secretary of the external affairs ministry and one of South Block’s old ‘China hands’, “the Sikkim-Tibet sector of the boundary has already been negotiated under the Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1890 and demarcated in 1895.”

“The Chinese ministry of foreign affairs, in its note of 26 December 1959 addressed to the embassy of India, confirmed the position by stating that ‘the boundary between China and Sikkim has long been formally delimited and there is neither any discrepancy between the maps nor any disputes in practice,” Kalha wrote last month in Mint, responding to media reports about the Chinese ambassador in Delhi’s “strangest” proposal for “early demarcation of the Sikkim-Tibet boundary.”

Bhutan faults China

Lu repeated China’s assertion that Donglang – which he called Doklam – was part of Chinese territory “since ancient times and it doesn’t belong to Bhutan”.

He accused India of impinging on Bhutan’s sovereignty by attempting to fight its battles. “We hope that all countries can respect Bhutan’s sovereignty. Although the boundary between China and Bhutan is yet to be demarcated, the two sides have been working on that through peaceful negotiation. Any third party must not and does not have the right to interfere, still less make irresponsible moves or remarks that violate the fact,” he said.

Currently, Bhutan does not have diplomatic relations with China, but maintains contacts with periodic visits by the Chinese ambassador based in Delhi.

Meanwhile, Bhutan’s ambassador to India, Major-General V Namgyal told The Hindu that “the road construction by the Chinese Army was ‘progressing toward’ a camp of the Royal Bhutan Army at Zom Pelri” and that his government had told the Chinese side that this construction “is not in keeping with the agreements between China and Bhutan [on resolution of their boundary],” Ambassador Namgyal was quoted as saying. He added that Bhutan has asked China to “stop and refrain from changing the status quo.”
 
The clearest map I have seen regarding these incidents:
NDTVBhutan_China_India.jpg

Shaded in white is territory under China's control.
Yellow line is an existing road.
White dashed line is road China is building.
White blocked out area is where Bhutan has a garrison.
The India-China border in this area is settled while the Bhutan-China border is disputed.

Came from this Indian media video:
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I don't know what India-Bhutan defense arrangements there are and how China sees those but it would appear from the map that any Indian troops interfering with construction of the road were clearly inside Chinese controlled territory, certainly not Indian territory even if it might be disputed by Bhutan.
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder what is Indian thinking? This land is not in dispute between India and China, look like they are adopting the position that we are helping Bhutan in its border dispute with China. And clearly India violated Chinese territory.

The only motivation I can think of is that they wants to make themselves look like the good guy helping Chinese enemy to stand up to China.

But they have to know this is not going to work right? In the end China is simply not going to give in, they have far more resources in the area, and China have more motivation in not comprising in territory dispute at this time, if China give in and India wins then India would have gained tremendous prestige and can butt in South China sea as well.

But if India loses which they inevitable will, then they would really lose face in their own home tariff and abroad and give China the excuse to further militarize the border and its allies, after all, India is not liked by most of their neighbors like Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, whom all have better relations with China than with India.

Or would this be the action of Indian soldiers on the ground that escalated the situation without the authorization from higher up?
 
China's story and proof.

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China offers evidence of Indian troops crossing border
SourceECNS.CNEditorDong ZhaohuiTime2017-07-02

(ECNS) -- At a regular press conference on Thursday, China's Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lu Kang revealed several photos of Indian border troops crossing the mutually-recognized boundary at the Sikkim section and entering China.

In accordance with article one of the Convention Between Great Britain and China Relating to Sikkim and Tibet (1890), "the boundary of Sikkim and Tibet shall be the crest of the mountain range separating the waters flowing into the Sikkim Teesta and its affluents from the waters flowing into the Tibetan Mochu and northwards into other rivers of Tibet. The line commences at Mount Gipmochi on the Bhutan frontier, and follows the above-mentioned water-parting to the point where it meets Nipal territory." From this we can see that Doklam belongs to China, Lu said.

15d038334a076601261341.jpg

This photo shows Indian border troops crossing the mutually-recognized boundary at the Sikkim section and entering China. (Photo/fmprc.gov.cn)

The pictures clearly show that the Indian soldiers and vehicles overstepping the crest which is defined as the boundary and entered Chinese territory.

"The water-parting in the area where the Indian troops trespassed is distinct. It is an irrefutable fact that the Indian troops crossed into the Chinese territory. By doing so, they have violated the boundary convention and the commitment upheld by successive Indian governments," the spokesman added.

Lu said the pictures would be posted on the website of the Foreign Ministry following the press conference.

15d038334ae76601262062.jpg

This photo shows Indian border troops crossing the mutually-recognized boundary at the Sikkim section and entering China. (Photo/fmprc.gov.cn)
 
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