Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Brumby

Major

Pursuant to the concept of distributed lethality, long range strike capability in the form of longer range ASM's would be a given for the role of the LCS/FF in the future. I suspect the CONOP's would be built around some form of SAG with Burke's providing area defence and the LCS's as extended strike platforms. The networked battlefield concept has been tested and proven with multiple assets acting as sensors that are non organic to the LCS's. I think the main weakness in the LCS is its limited operational endurance.
 

strehl

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't know if all the various sea based ROVs that will eventually be hosted on LCS platforms has been posted. These aren't all being developed as part of the LCS and other ships (including DDGs) will also use them. Air based ROVs would include the MQ4B/C and Scan Eagle/Integrator.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned as a possible role for LCS is support for SOCOM. That large payload bay and flight deck would make a useful staging base. Not as stealthy as a submarine but with reduced RCS and a moonless night it might be good enough.

XMFs6aS.png
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Future-LCS-21-Named-USS-MinneapolisSt.-Paul.jpg

Naval Today said:
US Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus yesterday announced that the next Freedom-variant littoral combat ship will be named USS Minneapolis/St. Paul (LCS 21).

The future Minneapolis/St. Paul was named to honor the citizens of Minnesota’s Twin Cities who have a long and proud history of naval service. It will be the second ship to bear the name. The first, a submarine, was commissioned in 1984.

A fast, agile surface combatant, the LCS provides the required warfighting capabilities and operational flexibility to execute a variety of missions in areas such as mine warfare, anti-submarine warfare and surface warfare.

Minneapolis/St. Paul will be built with modular design incorporating mission packages that can be changed out quickly as combat needs change in a region. These mission packages are supported by detachments that deploy both manned and unmanned vehicles, and sensors in support of mine, undersea, and surface warfare missions.

The ship will be 388 feet long and capable of traveling at speeds in excess of 40 knots. The construction will be led by a Lockheed Martin industry team in Marinette, Wisconsin.

This naming means that all of the first 24 LCS have now been named.
 
... the various sea based ROVs that will eventually be hosted on LCS platforms ...

various things can "eventually" happen, as
Too much is at stake to accept the status quo and permit systems with long documented cost, schedule, performance, and reliability shortfalls to get a free pass into the fleet.
according to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
obtained by Breaking Defense, senators
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
slam a key component of the Navy’s Littoral Combat Ship as unreliable and urge the Pentagon to explore alternatives to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

In their Aug. 31 letter to the Pentagon’s acquisition chief,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Navy Secretary
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and outgoing Chief of Naval Operations
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the Senate Armed Services Committee leaders warn against a “rush to failure” and strongly suggest a “delay,” especially since key decisions on the LCS
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(MCM) module are set for October and February,

The Littoral Combat Ship has been the Navy’s most hated program since its inception, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The core concept — a lightweight warship that could switch missions by loading different mission packages of equipment — remains controversial with naval traditionalists who see LCS as
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The ships themselves have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with cost overruns and quality control. But LCS can’t do much without its mission packages, none of which is completely finished.

The most complex module — and arguably the most important given
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
— is the Mine Counter-Measures (MCM) mission package. It’s currently undergoing a series of technical tests, already extended due to mechanical problems. That narrow technical evaluation will determine whether MCM is ready for a full-up operational evaluation, which in turn will determine whether MCM is ready for production. The Pentagon will decide whether to go ahead with Initial Operational Test & Evaluation in October.

The crux of the problem is an underwater drone meant to seek out submerged mines. The official names are the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(RMMV) — if you’re just talking about the unmanned vessel, made by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
— and the Remote Mine-Hunting System — if you’re talking about it fully kitted with a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. It’s a “semi-submersible” system that projects slightly above the water, neither a submarine nor a boat but something in between. The Navy will decide in February whether to award a production contract for more RMMVs.

So what’s the problem? The drone’s supposed to go for 75 hours, on average, between failures. According to the Pentagon’s top tester, it manages just 25. (The Navy says its testing shows
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
between failures). That’s despite years of work to make it work better. “Recent developmental testing provides no statistical evidence that the system is demonstrating improved reliability, and instead indicates that reliability plateaued nearly a decade ago,” wrote the director of operational test and evaluation, Michael Gilmore, in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

So maybe it’s time to cut bait, the senators suggest, none too gently,

With the mine threat especially urgent in the Persian Gulf, the Navy hasn’t waited for MCM-equipped Littoral Combat Ships to show up. Instead, it’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and found out what works. McCain and Reed recommend three in particular for the Pentagon to review:

  • Northrop Grumman’s
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    (MHU), which are drones like the balky RMMV but go on the surface of the water instead of partially submerging. It also uses a different sonar (AN/AQS-24 rather than AN/AQS-20). The
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    already has four MHUs in service.
  • Textron’s
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    (C-USV), another robo-boat, which is already under contract as part of the LCS MCM package. Its current role is to tow an Unmanned Influence Sweep System (UISS) that detonates mines at a distance, but, the senators say, it could tow various sonars as well. “The C-USV appears to present both a cheaper and more effective alternative,” they write.
  • AUVAC’s Mark 18 unmanned underwater vehicle, in both its
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    and
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    variants. Both have served with 5th Fleet, and one of the Navy’s nuclear-powered
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    has used them as well.
“The decisions made over the next six months will set the course for our nation’s maritime [mine warfare] capabilities for decades to come,” the senators write. “Too much is at stake to accept the status quo and permit systems with long documented cost, schedule, performance, and reliability shortfalls to get a free pass into the fleet.”
source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

strehl

Junior Member
Registered Member
various things can "eventually" happen, as

according to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They are talking specifically about the RMMV built by Lockheed. Just as an aside, I think the RMMV will be around longer than Senator McCain. I doubt he is going to survive the Republican primary election next year. He has pissed off way too many voters too many times.
 
I did the underlining below
They are talking specifically about the RMMV built by Lockheed. ...

"The official names are the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(RMMV) — if you’re just talking about the unmanned vessel, made by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
— and the Remote Mine-Hunting System — if you’re talking about it fully kitted with a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the sonar:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


and
"Although the Navy is working on upgrades to improve system performance and LCS
capability in the v6.0 RMMV and the AN/AQS-20A/B sonar, developmental testing completed in 1QFY15 demonstrated continued performance issues and RMS mission package integration challenges."
says
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

strehl

Junior Member
Registered Member
I did the underlining below


"The official names are the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(RMMV) — if you’re just talking about the unmanned vessel, made by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
— and the Remote Mine-Hunting System — if you’re talking about it fully kitted with a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the sonar:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


and
"Although the Navy is working on upgrades to improve system performance and LCS
capability in the v6.0 RMMV and the AN/AQS-20A/B sonar, developmental testing completed in 1QFY15 demonstrated continued performance issues and RMS mission package integration challenges."

I would take this more seriously if I was ignorant of what the independent department of test and evaluation has become. It was set up precisely as an adversarial organization with a mission to prove all the weapons being developed by the armed services were junk.

I have personally seen ridiculous test requirements imposed that had zero real world applicability.

I am not saying programs don't have problems. It is simply that a bureaucracy which views it's mission as killing off weapon systems is going to try to do exactly that. I will take the word of the sailors whose lives will depend upon these systems over a whatever a bureaucrat says.

If a system is truly bad, word leaks out and whistle blowers who go against weapons programs are treated as heroes by the media. This isn't the 80's or 90's anymore when the press can say anything and get away with it. Youtube is very valuable in giving the average citizen a choice in either believing a bureaucrat/media narrative or his own lying eyes.

I remember how EMALS was a total failure and would never make it. Reports on initial tests and schedule delays were exactly like the reports you are now reading about LCS. It is tough to spin all those Youtube videos of the dead load shots off the Ford.

Just remember. Everyone (including the DOTE) has an axe to grind. I don't own Lockheed stock. I just don't like bureaucrats and the media.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I would take this more seriously if I was ignorant of what the independent department of test and evaluation has become. It was set up precisely as an adversarial organization with a mission to prove all the weapons being developed by the armed services were junk.

I have personally seen ridiculous test requirements imposed that had zero real world applicability.

I am not saying programs don't have problems. It is simply that a bureaucracy which views it's mission as killing off weapon systems is going to try to do exactly that. I will take the word of the sailors whose lives will depend upon these systems over a whatever a bureaucrat says.

Just remember. Everyone (including the DOTE) has an axe to grind. I don't own Lockheed stock. I just don't like bureaucrats and the media.
Well said strehl, and spot on.

Depending on the administration and their political emphasis, departments that could have a beneficial test and evaluation fnction can be turned into head hunters.

Saw it under Carter...saw it under Clinton...and we certainly are seeing it under Obama.

This does not mean that their are not issues with the LCS. They have talked about for some years and at least we are now seeing some movement towards addressing some of them...in particular up arming the ASM capability so they can meet peer and near-peer threats, whom they might meet in the littorals, on terms that give them the opportunity to defeat them. Before this latest iteration with the FF and the up arming of existing LCS, , they did not even have that chance.
 
A sampling of failures from the 2015 tests includes faulty depth sensors; throttle failures; alignment issues; inertial navigation unit failures; problems with recovery equipment; bad operator consoles; numerous computer and software connectivity problems; variable depth sonar failures; power failures; offboard communications failures; problems with maintaining line-of-sight communications between the ship and the vehicle; and repeated problems with the vehicle’s emergency recovery system, designed to float the craft to the surface should it begin to sink.
according to
Official: Minehunting System Shows No Improvement
August 30, 2015
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


who is to be blamed?
... bureaucrats and the media.
maybe?
 

strehl

Junior Member
Registered Member
according to
Official: Minehunting System Shows No Improvement
August 30, 2015

who is to be blamed?

Exactly.

I mentioned how DOTE can define test criteria that is totally ridiculous and then they get to generate headlines exactly as you quoted.

For example, say that a system has to be booted up with a complex operating software and steps have to be performed in sequence while monitoring how systems respond before pressing ahead with the next step. In other words, raw soldiers pulled off say a unit that does dog training can be brought in and given 5 minutes to read a manual and then watched to see how they do.

You think I'm kidding? Really?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top