Let's Talk The Mitsubishi Zero

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Lastly, please do note what happened with Allied fighter development during WW2. Allied fighters did not become more like the Zero, critically more maneuverable, but they became more like their own fighters. The engines were uprated and supercharged so that the Allies could cruise at higher altitudes as well as achieve higher max speeds, which allowed the F4U to dominate the Zero. The pace of Japanese development, on the other hand, did not follow its own tendencies; in the Japanese military establishment there was a reluctance to lose the high maneuverability of the Zero, and that made the job of Japanese military designers harder, but later Japanese aircraft were less maneuverable than the Zero, but faster and more armored.

Bit of a mistake here it's not that Japan was reluctant to follow, Japan didn't have the resources to develop a working supercharger/turbo at the end of the war and didn't have the high grade light kerosene to power higher revolution engines.
Basically after midway Japan's future was sealed with the lose of air superiority and lose of sea lanes.
 

Inst

Captain
IIRC the A6M3, starting in 1941, had a supercharger. More difficulties existed in keeping up with the Americans in getting high-end engines; at the start of the war there was no technology gap in engine technology, but by 1943 American planes often sported twice the horsepower of their Japanese counterparts. That didn't make them more maneuverable, though; the Japanese planes almost always had a huge wing-loading advantage, but in the BnZ fight they could only exploit it with their climb rate, which was often matched by the American simply by putting a stronger engine in the plane.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Your argument about the Kamikazes is incorrect. Despite heavy American air defense, some Kamikazes were still able to break through, even on the "1 per ship" role, and I believe the Japanese killed a light carrier. Imagine what they would have done if they had done a proper saturation attack, instead of sticking to Bushido 1-man 1-ship nonsense.
I don't think kamikaze was 1 man 1 ship with a single launch of aircraft. USS Laffey was attacked with a wing of ~20 kamikazes; 9 was shot down, 6 hit the ship and the rest missed.

USS nevada was attacked with a wing of 7 plane and one hit.

USS West Virginia was hit by a wing of 6 ohkas

I am not a student of the kamikazes so maybe Blue can shed some more information. But I don't think kamikaze was carried one plane to one ship where intended.

About the Zero, you're right about one thing; the Japanese were preparing for the last war, and the Zero was designed as a fighter that would have been superlative in fighting the last war. Recall that against WW1 fighters operated by the Chinese, the Zeros managed to defeat everything the ROC threw at them without a scratch, causing Jiang Jieshi to ground the ROCAF.

Moreover, against even experienced Battle of Britain veterans, the IJAAC/IJNAC more than managed to hold its own, because RAF pilots were trained both in peace and in war for low-speed maneuvering fights, a type of battle in which the Zero had no equal. Even when they revised tactics, the Spitfire faired poorly until the engine was upgraded, because it was designed too closely to the Zero's tactical specifications, unlike the BF109.

Lastly, please do note what happened with Allied fighter development during WW2. Allied fighters did not become more like the Zero, critically more maneuverable, but they became more like their own fighters. The engines were uprated and supercharged so that the Allies could cruise at higher altitudes as well as achieve higher max speeds, which allowed the F4U to dominate the Zero. The pace of Japanese development, on the other hand, did not follow its own tendencies; in the Japanese military establishment there was a reluctance to lose the high maneuverability of the Zero, and that made the job of Japanese military designers harder, but later Japanese aircraft were less maneuverable than the Zero, but faster and more armored.

If I come off as rude, I apologize, I dislike arguing with Engineer and I guess there's a bit of emotional transferrence.

We are all entitled to our own beliefs and I am an engineer too.

In a sense, allied fighters became like the zero too,

The P51 had a range of 2755 km with drop tanks, compared to the 1100 km of the P40 kitty hawk of the same era as the zero (or the Hawk P36 ~1000km).

I also don't think spitfires had issues with the Zero, they were comparable. The British (and Dutch) forces in Asia (malasyia / singapore) was armed with F2A Buffalos,

The only competition between the spitfire and zero is over Australia. The spitfire arrived Feb 1943; where they were playing the interceptor role against bombers rather than the air superiority role. They shot down ~50-60 aircract while losing ~30 spitfire in the process; a few was due to cannibalization due to the lack of parts.

Of course what comes nowadays is that ~30 spitfire were lost by shooting down ~5 Zero/Oscars. None the less, I won't make the assessment that the spitfire was not up to par to the zero.

Also on the question of the BF109 / spitfire; both have very very similar performances, with similar climb, roll and top speeds. Spitfire had lower wing loading, but the 109 had LEX...
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I don't think kamikaze was 1 man 1 ship with a single launch of aircraft. USS Laffey was attacked with a wing of ~20 kamikazes; 9 was shot down, 6 hit the ship and the rest missed.

USS nevada was attacked with a wing of 7 plane and one hit.

USS West Virginia was hit by a wing of 6 ohkas

I am not a student of the kamikazes so maybe Blue can shed some more information. But I don't think kamikaze was carried one plane to one ship where intended.
One plane one ship???

No there was no such practice/order by the Kamikaze pilots. Near the end of the war Kamikaze pilot only received basic training on how to fly where they were only taught how to fly straight. Hell the Jihad pilots that rammed the airliner in 9.11 had more training then the Kamikaze pilots at the end of the war.
The seasoned pilots that had experience that was forced into Kamikaze attack dropped their bombs on the target and returned back to base and faced court martial and another Kamikaze run in which at the end the commanding officer order the mechanics to disable the release button so the pilots had no choice but to ram their planes into the ships. What a waste of experience.
As I said before after midway Japan's fate was sealed.
 

Inst

Captain
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"One man - One Ship"

I'm not sure to what degree this practice was followed; in practice a salvo launch would require significantly more training than the Japanese could have allowed.

Of course, I absolutely agree with you and I've already stated before your entry that Japan lost the war at Midway, but at the same time, simply because you lose early, it doesn't mean that you can't analyze mistakes made later. I'd like to say it's a bit of a Chinese thing, the urge to critically analyze the past (Sima Qian, Qing Dynasty history promulgated by the Republic of China, etc).

Another mistake with the Kamikaze corps was that it violated the basic principle of suicide warfare. Suicide warfare works when you begin a war with it; consider the American Alamo or for that matter, King Gou Jian's Yue army, where the front rank of his infantry square would deliberately decapitate themselves to disorient, intimidate, and confuse the enemy.

Kamikaze, as a military weapon, was a weapon beyond its time. It used human beings, unfortunately, as the guidance component of what was effectively a cruise missile. Modern naval warfare, on the other hand, is dominated by cruise missiles, air-launched and sea-launched, although we use a guidance unit instead of a human controller.

However, the Empire of Japan's resort to it towards the end of the war was tactical incompetence. With an "ethos" of "bushido", as well as a history of successful Banzai charges against the Chinese in the First Sino-Japanese War, it should have been expected that suicide warfare should have played a role by the very start. Kamikaze, by virtue of heavy explosive payload, as well as precision human guidance, would have been more decisive than dive bombers in many of the battles before Midway and could have helped turn the balance.

Once again, consider the case of Gou Jian as well as the American psychological response to kamikaze attacks. The Americans, being generally practical and consequentialists, were not impressed by the Japanese resolve to die, especially since the Americans were already winning the war. On the other hand, if you consider the psychological warfare of Gou Jian, there is an intimidation value when suicide warfare is used to enhance the effect of the conventional army; i.e, at the start of the war, there was a feeling that the Japanese were supermen, due to their rapid advance against Western territories and the powerful combination of the highly-trained and dedicated Imperial Japanese Air Corps and their ultra-maneuverable Zero. There, a willingness to conduct suicide warfare, against an opponent who was already intimidated, would have had a devastating psychological effect.

In general, though, if you read Pankaj Mishra's description of Japanese pre-war government, it was a grievous series of missteps by the Japanese high command that resulted in Hiroshima. The deal presented by the American government was perfectly amenable, although difficult to suffer, and Yamamoto correctly understood that in a prolonged war, enabled by the vast distances across the Pacific, Japan had no chance. Instead, as someone who is ethnic Chinese, I am gleefully watching the latest Chinese GDP figures (the recession won't last past 2020) and debating the failures of the Imperial Japanese High Command.

@Lezt
But none of the Allied aircraft ever matched the Zero in maneuverability. Range was definitely a plus, yet the way the war developed low-speed maneuverability became irrelevant.

As to whether maneuverability in general is useful; the idea that maneuverability is obsolete is flawed, as is the idea that maneuverability is paramount. Times and military doctrines come and go; the Zero's emphasis on ultra-maneuverability might have been its greatest flaw in WW2, but in Vietnam the USAF's inability to consider maneuverability, and its emphasis on BVR, allowed the Vietnamese to give the Americans a bloody nose. The USAF currently believes that maneuverability is irrelevant, which I think is mostly correct; maneuverability is mostly useful right now as a way to reduce BVR NEZ, and WVR off-boresight missiles will punish cruelly anyone who still believes that a missile with a man in it can dodge a missile with electronics without killing the pilot. However, long-term, we don't know how maneuverability will develop. With unmanned aircraft, aircraft now have the potential to outmaneuver missiles. With radar-jamming AESA, it may become the case that a combination of active jamming and blinding lasers could make it so that the ability to point your AESA on your opponent could become as dominant as the ability to point your gun was in the pre-missile era. And with more developed lasers, we could reach the era that BVR and WVR missiles alike are shot down by point defense, and it's the ability to point your laser at the enemy that decides the war.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Inst,

Low speed maneuverability is not the Zero's design primary intent; its a light enough aircraft to be powered by rather existing available weak engine, equal the maneuverability of the A5M, have very good range and fit for carrier duty. Thus the result is a aircraft with very light aircraft with low wing loading which resulted in very good maneuverability at low speed. Due to the light construction, large wing area and hence control surfaces, the zero is not good in a dive, at high speed, it has too much drag. ultra maneuverability is not in its design brief.

It is also not true that other countries did not try to develop highly maneuverable lightweight fighters; like the Macchi Folgore C.202; Yak-3; Mig-3.

maneuverability is also not limited to evading missiles and cannons; even if it is an off bore missile, a one that is fired straight at the enemy is more effective than the one fired off bore; maneuverability allows that
 

Inst

Captain
I have already spoken at length about the deficits of the Zero's maneuvering ability; that is to say, while it is nearly peerless as a low-speed fighter, at higher air speeds the Zero's ailerons lock up.

MirageIII claimed that the Zero was designed primarily for range, and I believe him. The wing-loading was partially a bonus, but most Japanese fighters had exceptional wing loadings as well.

Regarding other high-maneuverability fighters, Wikipedia claims that the Japanese and the Italians highly emphasized slow dogfighters, resulting in the Zero. However, the Italians did not have the same engineering genius as the Japanese, so the comparable Italian aircraft were outclassed in the field of maneuverability, in part because of their even more deficient engines.

Interestingly enough, Italian dogfighters, exported to Finland, scored a 33-2 kill ratio against the Soviet Air Force, flying the faster Yak-1s. To me, this is an excellent indication of how well maneuvering fighters with skilled pilots can do against poorly-trained airmen with speed-oriented fighters. However, the Italian Air Force rapidly became obsolete in Europe proper, hampered by their poor engines, and I'd like to think as well, by the fact that when you put two skilled pilots against each other in a maneuvering fighter and a speed-oriented aircraft, the speed demon wins.

I've already made this comparison, but it's like a rapier vs a katana. A possibly apocryphal story involves a German unit engaging a Japanese unit in the Second Sino-Japanese War, before the Tripartite Pact. They had agreed to fight each other with swords, possibly with the scabards attached, resulting in the defeat of the German enlisted men but the triumph of the German officers.

This shows that at different skill levels, employing different tactics, the balance of power tips.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Inst,

I don't know where you are bringing this discussion; your argument was that the Zero was largely a myth; I think we can establish that it was a good plane for its time. Your examples of how well trained italian airmen fared against green russians is in agreement with the assessment that late war zeros were not performing because the late war japanese airmen was green.

So you do agree with Mirages III's argument as you have argued against in your first post.

Thus are you changing your perspective or are you arguing against yourself?
 

Inst

Captain
The reason you misunderstand me is that I am saying that low-speed maneuverability is irrelevant. I absolutely acknowledge that the Zero was unsurpassed in that area for the entirety of the war, but a competent pilot would be able to prevent the Zero from exploiting its low-speed maneuverability advantage in almost all circumstances, except when too close to the ground.

That is the myth of the Zero; it's like saying a car is the best ever because of its aesthetic design, despite the fact that it runs 100L/km, has trouble hitting 60 km/h, and can only seat one. In aesthetics, it may be superior to its rivals, but in the specifications where it counts, it's grossly inferior.

Of course, the Zero DID manage to exploit its low-speed maneuverability advantage, but that was only because the Japanese, like the Finns, were facing poorly-trained pilots at the outset. Boom and Zoom tactics, or energy tactics, are unnatural and intellectual adaptations. The effective fighter pilot, without being taught or having a stroke of genius, won't arrive at it naturally, but once he does, he will have an advantage over pilots trained to emphasize maneuvering.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
I repeat again, the Zero was not designed for low speed maneuverability, it is a byproduct.

The zero was a legend because it was a fast plane with great range allowing it to hit outside of the traditional fighter window.

The early war A6M2 have a top WEP speed of 345 mph (328 was tested in san diego without engaging WEP), F4F-3 has a 331 mph, P40 is a 340 mph; only the spitfire, ME109 are at 375 mph. these are all taken at around 18,000 ft. Western fighter have better dive speeds, zero had better climb speeds. one or the other have better stall characteristics, yaw, turn rates and roll rates, range, armor and armaments.

The legend of the zero is the fact that it is a carrier based fighter that matched the performance of land based fighters. The strengthening required for the hooked arrest and steeper approach angle meant that navel fighters were by nature heavier and therefore less performing than their land based counterparts of the same technology.

i.e. Seafires are slower and less manuverable than spitfires of the same mark. The P51D of 1942 is 437 mph vs the F4F of the same time of 331 mph. The F6F reaches 380 mhp in 1943. The zero disputed this; it can fight with the best land based fighter of the time. This is why it is a legendary design.
 
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