JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

tphuang

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Re: JF-17: New Pics

let me try to translate the article from the top.
this was hard work!

Hope this works well.

JF-17 is currently China's only advanced fighter

developed in open. Many people use it to understand

China's fighter development direction. The DSI

change that started in June of 2004 caused many

surprises, so did the Leading edge extension in

September. Since 2006, JF-17 has been viewed even

more when President Musharraf visited. CCTV showed

brand new JF-17 04 with a previously unseen modern

glass cockpit. This cockpit represent ourcountry's

avionics level has reached world class. JF-17

showed 1 HUD and 2 MFD in the cockpit in previous

displays. There were analog controls in the middle.

The look was similar to F-16a/b. In 2004, zhuhai

airshow showed a cockpit with 1 HUD and 3 MFDs. All

the analog meters on the cockpit got replaced by

digital control. Cockpit underwent a total digital

information redesign. However, the model does not

give people the good feeling that a real thing

would.

Everyone knows that JF-17 is a China/Pakistan

combined venture. JF-17's main aim is to equip PAF.

In south Asian crisis, Pakistan receive American

embargo. It not only failed to receive 79 F-16s it

order, but also could not get spare parts to F-16.

As a result, it had to order 80 F-7PG and some

squadrons even got F-16s replaced by F-7PG. This is

rarely seen in military aviation. JF-17's

development is extremely urgent. Pakistan believes

that JF-17's capability and price should be lower

than F-16C/D, but capability should be higher than

F-16A/B. Due to the anti-terrorism planning, PAF's

importance got changed. America not only agreed to

sell F-16, but also some advanced F-16s that it

could not get before. Due to this pressure, JF-17's

requirement got increased. It needs to be more

advanced than F-16, that's why you see the whole

change in 04.

The new cockpit's electronic system showed JF-17's

modified capability. The new cockpit is very

compact and functional position is positioned well

and shows very mature system. 1 HUD is the main

fighter display. This HUD has 24 degree in sight.

It can add infrared signal? and supply flying,

navigation, liftoff and landing info, it can also

display target details and shooting detail. It can

also communicate, navigate using the GUI There is a

camera located above the HUD. It records HUD and

external sights. HUD is the most important

instrument in flight. Integrated informational

level is dependent on this. Russia added some nice

looking displays for su-30, but their display

information is simple and information is spread.

So, it did not really integrate the information.

The JF-17 HUD uses a lot of digital processing and

information integration information. For example,

radar information, fight command info. HUD's

controller has the ability to change display.

Controller can also control all of the plane's

dipslay. 3 MFDs are below the HUD. It is multi-

colour LCD display. The dimension of the MFD is

20.3cmx30.6cm (note: this works out to be 8 x 12

inch, but a more realistic estimation is 6.25x8.25).

The area is 4 times the previous area. The display

brightness and contrast can be automatically

adjusted. It also allows handle control. Each MFD

displays important function. Display info can be

changed. The control on the side acts as parameter

design. Very often, left side shows weapon

situation and numbers. Right side displays radar

and combat info. The center shows some less

important info, because it requires the pilot to

lower his/her head. Like navigational info and map

and so so. All the MFD can change to other info

like radar, cockpit camera? and infrared picture and

such. cockpit also allows night navigation and

pilots can use night goggles to fly.

04 uses a hotas controller? pilot can keep hands on

controller and still control the fighter's sensor

mode, weapon and display. This greatly reduces a

pilots movement and makes operation much easier.

The controller does not affect the position in

combat? Basically, allows pilots to keep the hand

on the controller in combat. The earlier western

4th generation fighters like F-16A/B only had

limited functions on the controller. JF-17 hotas

uses advanced western design like F-16C/d, F-18C/D

and Mirage2K5's newest model for design. Also, the

system has different controls dependent on the hand

size, length and finger size and length of the user.

Basically, uses customizable controller. Allows a

lot of activities done with limited energy.

04 uses all digital integrated electronic display.

all computers/electronics uses 2 STD-MTL-1553B

databus combined, curren info shared repository and

shared data repository. According to demand, it

also divides into weapons w/commands, radar, EW,

communication, electronic control, payload control,

FBW and so on. This avionics system's core lies in 2

advanced weapons controlling computer. these two

computers do something... Each computer controls 1

double thick 1553B databus? This computer uses new

structure system. It uses main controller rights to

receive and process each system's info. At the same

time, receive pilot's command. Uses command to

control other systems. It's current world's most

advanced input computer and main line integration

web. Very few new fighters has this kind of complex

and high speed system like typhoon, rafale and F-16

E/F. This system uses battle flight software

package to exercise control and allows using

development of more detailed software package to

improve fighter capability and work load. Weapon

controlling computer directly connects to MFD's

structure. It uses information from each system to

display on the 1 HUD and 3MFDs. Radar system is

another important part of JF-17. It's also a major

commercial battle area. Pakistan used a lot of

Grifo radar in the past on F-7s. JF-17 also was

about to use this. Italy also pitted Grifo-S2000

(should be S7) in competition. China also provided

a radar for customers. Domestic radar has good

support for China's weapon systems and missiles.

The current multimode PD radar has BVR capability,

WVR capability and attack land and sea mode and

other modes. Also has look down and shoot down

capability even under disruptive environments below.

You can Track 10 targets from 40 scanned targets

and handle 2 concurrent BVR engagement. The range

vs 3 m^2 targets is larger than 75KM and look down

is larger than 45 KM. It is larger than 135 KM vs

sea targets.

04's GPS navigation system replaced the traditional navigation system, greatly improved precision and reduced preparation time. Talks about GPs capability after this and how American military controls it. It also has other wireless navigation but not as precise as GPS.

JF-17's EW suite is very complex. It combines radar warning receiver and missile proximity receiver to form surveillence system and combined with ECM work. JF-17 uses uses something to diagnose RWR. It can receive a lot of information like fighter radar, missile seeker, A2S guidance radar and provides within 1.5 degree news. RAR has about 100+ radar info repository. It uses measured info to compare. detect the threatening origin and correct (radar type or fighter type?) and warning level. This repository can improve to 300. It can allow reprogramming, receive wartime newly discovered radar signal. 04's improved tail (backside" contains a missile proximity receiver. There will probably be two more put on the fighter for 360 degree coverage. It uses infrared and purple dual band imagine device. It has a purple red window? It can sense missile's rocket engine spoke from 20 KM in. It can correctly predict missile's location, trail and such. It can even estimate engagement time. It can be expanded to a fighter/missile recognition system. It can also provide some infrared imaging, communicate with RWR and hopefully can develop passive signal detection technology.

04's EW suite also has a ECM pod. It and the ECM on the tail provide joint work. ECM current uses traidtional infrared something? modern missile's countermeasure to this is getting stronger each day. To let this simple and cheap ECM achieve high efficiency shows system's level, RWR, MPR and such. This system is only equipped by rafale and F-22. F-18E/F and F-16E/F needs upgrade to have this. 04 should also have ECM inside of fighter. It uses modern ECM technology and uses precise tracking system. Can achieve the affect of large ECM machine with small equipment. This ECM is most modern active guided AAM. It can also counter gither radar lock and scan. It's mainly for PAF's enemy IAF's R-77 missiles.

To acommodate modern web of combat. 04 is equipped with 2 ECM vs radar tower and something else. It can receive datalink info from ground of AWACS. Other equippments include big air computer? and advanced digital processing signal and such. The electronic system stores everything, all the bugs and such. It can use computer to process this. Reduces ground maintenance.

It uses western standard MIL-STD-1760 to allow for integration of western weapons and can also get hooked on with Russian weapons. It will probably uses PL-9C, SD-10, PL-11, AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F. It also good use LGBs and possible A2G missile integration.
 

pshamim

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Re: JF-17: New Pics

TP, That is a great job. You have put in your valueable time and hard work to bring this information to us. Thanks
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics

The work done by tphuang is laudable and useful.

What has surprised me is that China has released such an unusually high amount of detail about the JF-17, which I almost never get to see (in the English media atleast).
The details of most of Chinese defence projects are always sketchy and kept secretive by China.

All this is an indication that :

a] China is serious about the marketing potential of the FC-1, and hence it has deliberately released so much detail about the FC-1.
It has the potential to be the F-16 of many third-world nations.

b] The JF-17 is equivalent to a Block 52 F-16 (except in max. speed). The avionics package is equivalent to any modern 4th generation fighter.
The argument (especially by Pakistan), that the JF-17 is a "medium-tech" 3.5 gen aircraft is completely negated.
The PAF is likely to purchase only JF-17 as its frontline, equivalent but cheaper fighter, instead of the Block 52 F-16.

c] China wants to dissipate US fears that China is engaged in a secretive military build-up. Such a public display (as in western nations) is likely to be meant to shed the "covert and secretive" charge.

This amount of detail given for the JF-17 probably surpasses even that of the available detail for the...ahhem...cough....cough....L**.
 
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vincelee

Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics

FC-1 does not even approach the air to ground capability of the F-16 BLK50.

Also, "purple red" in T's post should be translated as ultraviolet.

on thing that's interesting is the device used to detect missile plumes, is it using a focal plane array?
 

tphuang

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Re: JF-17: New Pics

that's what it was, darn! ultraviolet, how come i forget? ultrapurple, stupid me! A couple of more things:
1. a lot of places I wrote infrared signal for detector, I meant FLIR. Although I'm not sure if it really meant FLIR or IRST. The guy who wrote the article isn't the most technical person around.
2. the radar specs - I think that's the specs set by the PAF government. It's not necessarily the actual specs of KLJ-10. For example, I'm pretty sure KLJ-10 can do 4 concurrent engagements
3. A lot of its boasting on the EW suite doesn't make sense to me at least, since it seems to be saying its traditional, but then it's at F-22/Rafale level.
4. Also, any idea what my translation of missile poximity receiver is?
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics

tphuang said:
that's what it was, darn! ultraviolet, how come i forget? ultrapurple, stupid me! A couple of more things:
1. a lot of places I wrote infrared signal for detector, I meant FLIR. Although I'm not sure if it really meant FLIR or IRST. The guy who wrote the article isn't the most technical person around.
2. the radar specs - I think that's the specs set by the PAF government. It's not necessarily the actual specs of KLJ-10. For example, I'm pretty sure KLJ-10 can do 4 concurrent engagements
3. A lot of its boasting on the EW suite doesn't make sense to me at least, since it seems to be saying its traditional, but then it's at F-22/Rafale level.
4. Also, any idea what my translation of missile poximity receiver is?


Well the last one probably better term is Missile Proximity warning sensor
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics

tphuang said:
1. a lot of places I wrote infrared signal for detector, I meant FLIR. Although I'm not sure if it really meant FLIR or IRST.
It is likely to be an IRST, since it is mentioned that it can track and trail a missile, and guessing of the missile/aircraft maybe an enhancement in the future.
But I did not understand why would it "communicate" with the RWR and what would be "passive signal detection"
(since IRST normally employs this feature).

2. the radar specs - I think that's the specs set by the PAF government.
As of now, PAF is discussing the purchase of Selex AESA radars for the JF-17. It is unlikely that the Chinese radar shall be chosen if the Selex radar is made available.
 

SABRE

Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics

Great work TP. This danm sure will prove to ppl that JF-17 that the main concept of JF-17 is to have a fighter Superior or equal to MiG-29, Mirage2000-5, F-16 BLK-40 etc.

Indianfighter said:
a] China is serious about the marketing potential of the FC-1, and hence it has deliberately released so much detail about the FC-1.
It has the potential to be the F-16 of many third-world nations.

You could be correct here.

b] The JF-17 is equivalent to a Block 52 F-16 (except in max. speed). The avionics package is equivalent to any modern 4th generation fighter.
The argument (especially by Pakistan), that the JF-17 is a "medium-tech" 3.5 gen aircraft is completely negated.
The PAF is likely to purchase only JF-17 as its frontline, equivalent but cheaper fighter, instead of the Block 52 F-16.
nah ... BLOCK 52+ is still way superior even though JF-17 includes some avionics tht regular export model Blk52+ dnt. But that doesnt mean u can integret them on F-16s.

PAF doesnt want JF-17 to be a front line fighter. Its a mass support and escort fighter but offcourse major line of defence. The front line possition may be held by F-16 BLK 52 C/D and J-10 or any other aircraft and they may become the Back Bone or the Spine of PAF, but the whole Back would be JF-17.


Talking abt the Max. Speed. The speed 1st informed was MACH 1.6, but later PAC/CAC announced that speed is to be increased to MACH 1.8 (Equal to F-18s). Since that announcement I havent seen much on it. Has any one got any information on increasing of speed?


c] China wants to dissipate US fears that China is engaged in a secretive military build-up. Such a public display (as in western nations) is likely to be meant to shed the "covert and secretive" charge.

Having a secret military project is no international crime. US has done that with F-117 NightHawk and B-2 Spirit. Besides US has known abt JF-17 since the begining. They them selves r involved in the history of jf-17. They were the 1st partners with China to upgrade F-7s. But upgrading was dumped in favor of J-9 but US pulled out after the events of Tinamen Sqr. Later China tried to continue alone as Super-7, that dint seem to work out well and more attention was probably diverted to J-10. But in 1990 Pakistan joined the Super-7 project. The project was completely ripped off and redisgned to FC-1/JF-17. So the US knew abt JF-17 since the begining.

The avionics detail may be suprising for US but not shocking. This will also force US to sell better Avionics for F-16s to Pakistan, superior to both J-10 and JF-17. Otherwise F-16s will have no meaning.
 

tphuang

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Re: JF-17: New Pics

Indianfighter said:
It is likely to be an IRST, since it is mentioned that it can track and trail a missile, and guessing of the missile/aircraft maybe an enhancement in the future.
But I did not understand why would it "communicate" with the RWR and what would be "passive signal detection"
(since IRST normally employs this feature).

As of now, PAF is discussing the purchase of Selex AESA radars for the JF-17. It is unlikely that the Chinese radar shall be chosen if the Selex radar is made available.
if it was translated directly to english, it's actually closer to FLIR, but I guess the person who wrote this seemed to be more a marketting person, so the author might not know the difference between the two. Logically, it should be talking about IRST, since IRST is reportedly equipped on JF-17 from a previous JDW article.

As for Selex AESA radar, it's just premature talk. Until there is formal announcement made, I still stick to the last announcement that the first 50 are using Chinese radar+avionics.

Actually, if someone can translate the part on the EW suite on why JF-17's ECM is good, it would be appreciated. That part seems to be very vague and doesn't proof anything.

Also, the missile sensor is actually called missile approach warner by the typhoon website. The article also didn't state that it has a laser warning receiver.
 
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