JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by johnqh, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. ougoah
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    ougoah Senior Member
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    I guess Biscuits is just fed up with people using the Lavi J-10 connection to make inaccurate and silly statements about the overall ability of the Chinese aerospace industry and sometimes broad generalisations about Chinese. In reality there is no shame even in making a direct Lavi copy which the J-10 is not (as opposed to J-11A and to a great extent J-11B and flanker types).

    Most nations cannot even understand the concepts behind the Lavi let alone even try their hand at a copy. And this is Chinese aerospace industry about 40 years ago now. Yet many still use this to back up their denigration of something like J-20. Great example is when some members here said something along the lines of China could not have possibly made a 5th gen fighter because China never made a 4th gen fighter themselves since J-10 is a total copy of Lavi. It's IMPOSSIBLE to leapfrog :rolleyes: and therefore J-20 must not be 5th gen. There are many things wrong with that including the 5th gen definition and LockMart - USAF terminology, but this should give people an idea why some members may react emotionally to the never-ending Lavi J-10 talk.

    @Biscuits, just accept that some people are not interested in truth or understanding the complexity and nuances in the world, they are motivated by personal politics, tribalism, and preferences for their own dogmatic belief systems. Often they're just too simple to put in the effort to differentiate between how the FCS has to be different between an AL31 powered J-10 with different geometries with a F-100 powered Lavi. Do not take it seriously and while I'm in the camp where I consider J-10A heavily based on the Lavi program. I explained in post above how the J-10A still differs considerably enough and the lessons learned from Lavi helped create J-10A which helped develop it into a more capable platform in J-10C, using entirely Chinese components and subsystems (which even applied to J-10A). There is no shame in that even though many idiots online want to shame due to those personal motivations.
     
  2. PiSigma
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    PiSigma "the engineer"

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    And I will take one of the chief engineers of the j10 over your word or your air Marshall's. J10 is no Lavi copy, not even influenced.
     
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  3. Biscuits
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    Biscuits Junior Member
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    Hi

    I will take the word of Chengdu airspace who created BOTH JF-17 AND J-10 10x over any outsider.
     
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  4. secretprojects
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    secretprojects New Member
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    Even the 'official' history of J-10 acknowledges that Israel provided some key support in the flight control systems and other avionics areas. The PL-8 AAMs are Python 3. Russian engineers who assisted Chengdu with adapting the AL-31F to the J-10 have claimed to have seen first hand evidence of Israeli assistance.

    None of this takes away from the tremendous achievement J-10 represented.

    Ask IAI how they built the Lavi - with technical assistance by Grumman, licensed HUD technology from Kaiser.... Lear-Seigler FBW....
     
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  5. ougoah
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    ougoah Senior Member
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    IAI also produced the Kfir which is basically a copy of the Mirage 5 in a similar way to how J-11 is a copy of the Su-27. The Israelis had and still have a pretty competent aerospace industry and excellent knowledge base, proving that copying especially in earlier development stages is not exclusive to China. Neither does it show us much about current and future ability. Soviets copied the Rolls Royce Nene in their VK-1 engine. They copied the Concorde and planned on building a space shuttle equivalent. None of those indicate any sort of inherent inability. Chinese aerospace industry is already moving beyond pure aerodynamic copies. Again the real challenges are in subsystems and manufacturing (what you don't see) rather than finding a shape to make your general airfoil.
     
  6. PiSigma
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    PiSigma "the engineer"

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    There is no official history of j10 released..
     
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  7. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    The J-10 is believed to have Israeli input on the FCS, but the airframe, first, has a parent in the J-12 and J-9 canard designs. Second, the J-10 has a delta wing, whereas the Lavi has swept deltas. The Lavi is more of a F-16 with canards, the J-10 more of a Eurofighter with ventral strakes.
     
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  8. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan Junior Member

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  9. ougoah
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    ougoah Senior Member
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    This debate cycles about 3 times a year and has been cycling since the early 2000s lol. You can almost set your watch to it :p

    Guys let's all chill a bit and move on. Who cares... we're on J-10C which is nothing like the Lavi now and that's not even exciting anymore. Chinese industry have some better projects they're working on these days.

    At this point, we can comfortably let those naysayers just take the J-10A = Lavi thing they love to hold onto. If the Russians copied, the Israelis copied, and the Americans copied, there is no shame in it. In fact a fair bit of skill is required.

    We've moved on from the 1980s. If they really want J-10A = Lavi, let them have at least that much. It makes them feel better about themselves.
     
  10. Deino
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    Deino Brigadier
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    And therefore please end this stupid debate! In the end it's all about the definition of copy and influence ..
     
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