JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by johnqh, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. ougoah
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    ougoah Senior Member
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    Wouldn't be at all surprised major Chinese aircraft designers want input from someone who flew F-16s. It offers a perspective and a learning opportunity beyond what Chinese alone could achieve. But you seem to be suggesting that he is making it out like he is solely responsible for design suggestions and inputs. First of all aircraft design is one problem. Implementing design is the real challenge. Actually manufacturing the implemented design is a monumental challenge.

    For example with J-10. We know the similarity with Lavi. But Lavi existed as a prototype. The difference between that and a finished product is leaps and bounds. Look at J-20 prototype staging to J-20 in service and F-22 prototype flight in 1995 to introduction around 2005 and the difference between prototype and actual.

    J-10A is different to Lavi in some external ways already. They both have the same position of canards and ventral fins for example but the dimensions, materials, and geometry of just these are already very slightly different. This slight difference still changes the aerodynamics. J-10A is taller, longer, and wider than the Lavi with a completely different geometry intake. It uses a different engine to what the Lavi was designed around. This is just surface stuff. The weapons control, avionics, electronics, FCS, software, they're all Chinese and integrated by CAC tested, tweaked, and manufactured!

    Sure J-10 is absolutely based off the Lavi and I personally do not doubt that CAC designers based the J-10A solely off the Lavi and had fly by wire development assistance from the Israelis and/or Russians. Who cares, lessons learned and adapted. Lessons paid for as well.

    I think the above needed to be said again because so many stupidly use J-10 and Lavi as some sort of example to prove Chinese inability as if something from the 80s is somehow still relevant nearly 40 years later.

    As for user input. That's a minuscule part of aircraft development and this Pakistani guy was only asked for input to see what someone used to modern western fighters thinks. Chinese pilot inputs would also have been gathered and used when developing cockpit layout and the like. Also since J-10A was developed years before JF-17 and is a more difficult and ambitious project, the cockpit technologies would have been even older since the project would have taken longer overall. JF-17's cockpit though does seem very modern even by today's standards. It was amazing they managed to develop fully digital cockpit for JF-17 at such a low price. Makes me wonder about the quality of components but then honestly all crystal cockpit's challenge is software so quality should be a non issue.

    There is just no equivalence between the guy who says "I want three multifunction displays to digitise all flight data" with the guy who actually designs and implements. The difference is like one between an architect with some fancy sketches and renderings and an engineer who really knows how to execute. The engineer can actually get by without the architect and develop it perhaps not to the same effect but the architect alone can get absolutely zero substance made alone. And this is being generous.
     
    #4581 ougoah, Oct 8, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  2. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan Junior Member

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    Hi,

    I translated what he stated---.

    You can put take in whatever direction you want to---.
     
  3. jimmyjames30x30
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    jimmyjames30x30 Junior Member
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    It'd be awesome if it is true. I have always thought our iron-brothers the Pakistanis are forbidden/barred by the US from helping us out. I thought that every time they try to give us any help the US will threaten them. It would be really nice if it turns out that they have much more freedom to assist us than I have thought. Pakistanis are real iron brothers of Chinese!
     
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  4. ougoah
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    ougoah Senior Member
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    I appreciate the contribution and effort. Was also just sharing my thoughts on what was stated. We know PAF didn't end up buying J-10A. The reasons could be the 50 flaws he found and it would be interesting to know the specifics of the nature of these flaws. Since the guy didn't fly the J-10A and isn't an engineer familiar with the technical aspects, I would suspect these flaws are more user end things like control location, types of instruments used etc. He wouldn't be able to tell other flaws like incorrect use of composites, thermal issues, aerodynamic issues etc unless he has flown the J-10A extensively and is also a very knowledgeable engineer familiar with many different fighters so reference points can be obtained.

    My thoughts on why PAF rejected J-10A if it was ever offered in the first place (because I don't recall this and only recently J-10CE is an export thing but I could be wrong here) is because of funding and overlapping abilities with both F-16 and JF-17. PAF will be stupid to logistically fund yet another single engine "light" fighter with no parts commonality with F-16 or JF-17. This is perhaps the biggest reason for PAF not wanting J-10A even if it was on offer which I doubt since it had to go through Russia owing to AL-31. I think rather than using WS-10 on J-10 like J-11, CAC will just use the TVC version of WS-10 or maybe even WS-15 in future when it is ready. Maybe then it'll have no issues with exporting at all even though Russia Pakistan relations are at a high point now, India will not like to see a more capable fighter using Russian engines. They kicked up a stink with RD-93 in the past as it is. Imagine the fuss over a more potent fighter using Russian engine.

    On PAF's future, there will be no J-10CE or any J-10 purchases only because it isn't going to be that much better than modernised F-16 and JF-17 to justify the spending and the logistics could really hurt operational readiness. PAF is going to go with their 5th gen program while upgrading JF-17 and getting modern F-16s if possible.
     
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  5. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan Junior Member

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    Hi,

    He was supposedly threatened by the ambassador---who stated---we have an eye you all the time---if we see a single screw copied from F16---you will pay a heavy price---.

    AVM Shahid Latif is 'crazy' as well---. He was a superstar F16 pilot---when he was training in the US---he took on every pilot that the US could put in front of him and matched them or took them down---he was extremely mad at the US for putting sanctions on pakistan---.

    According to him---chinese were not upto par when he started this project after 2001---. Chinese engineering could not meet the needs of Paf---as he pushed along harder and harder---he got better results from the chinese engineers---when he got better results from the chinese---he pushed them harder for more and more---for more better results---.

    He talked about planning of the project---fights with the chinese engrs---chinese upset at him----him upset at the chinese---but then making up and moving forward with the project---he talks about growing pains of the project and he talks about the time when the chinese engineers started to deliver what he wanted them to---.
     
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  6. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan Junior Member

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    Hi,

    He has not flown the JF17 either---. Not buying the J10A for 50 flaws is not true---. Paf never wanted the J10A in the first place.

    J10A was just shown to Gen Musharaf for show and comparison purposes with the JF17BLK1---and not for purchase---but to show what AVM Latif has accomplished---.

    There used to be a company in the US---BASF their motto was---we did not invent the product---we made it better---.
     
  7. secretprojects
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    secretprojects New Member
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    The J-10A cockpit is a typical cockpit of a late 80s/early 90s era, very similar to what the Lavi would have had for obvious reasons. Its similar to an F-18 cockpit in most respects, though it wouldn't be surprising if some aspects of UI design was less well thought out. The JF17 cockpit is 20+ years later in conception and technology, its hardly surprising its better.

    It's quite likely that Pakistan had some input in cockpit design, having 20+ years of experience on F-16.
     
  8. Biscuits
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    Biscuits Junior Member
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    I thought this forum would have a higher standard than Israeli conspiracy theories. Two planes having canards don’t make them related. Might as well say the Eurofighter and Rafale are also Lavi?? Different engine, airframe, layout, armaments and avionics, only a world champion mental contortionist can mental gymnastic their way out of that.

    Western nationalist shills will step in China’s poo and claim that “acktuyually” a western nation made the poop.

    What the JF-17X offers over the J-10X is cost effectiveness. JF-17 descends from a proposed super upgrade to J-7, changing the air intakes to facilitate fitting a new radar along with increased wing area.

    Why would China even bother build a brand new 4/4.5gen if their own super J-7 variant is better?

    I respect that you can get like 4 JF-17s for 1 J-10 variant, and that makes them attractive for many roles. But going into nationalist fervor and thinking they’re superior to purpose built 4th gen made for China’s own units as opposed to export... that’s called being delusional.

    I also respect that Pakistan doesn’t have strategic need for J-10s right now, and that the money could be better spent on more cost effective platforms (or export versions of PL-15 for existing ones).

    But going “sour grapes” about the J-10 is stupid
     
  9. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan Junior Member

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    Hi,

    Will take the Air Vice Marshall PAF's word over your's---.
     
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  10. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    You beat me to it.

    I would add that calling someone delusional or stupid in my view is unnecessary in this discussion.
     
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