If engagement was fair and an actual representation of what real life 1 vs 2 WVR fight would be like, then it is fair to say it reflects poorly on the JF-17, favourably on J-11b, or both. I say this because we know that the PAF pilots are not bad at WVR (maybe the ones flying the JF-17 were novices). WVR should be close between flanker and jf-17 if all other factors were even. Certainly not a loss if it was 2 on 1, unless the two jf-17s were taking on the j-11b one after the other.
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Dizasta1
Senior Member
The whole point of DACT is to learn from each other, apply tactics and identify weaknesses. Isn't anything to worry about, it's part of development. JF-17s are good aircraft and so are J-11s. The capability of a combat jet is as good as the fighter-pilot sitting in it.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
One result doesn’t prove anything.
US Top Gun instructors regularly spank F15, F16s and F18s while flying F5s.
We also heard about how a top PLAAF J7 instructor spanked Su27/J11s years ago.
The sporting world is also full of famous examples of top players/teams loosing against opponents that should have had no chance on paper.
Every time you pitch two people/sides against each other, there are going to be a huge number of uncontrollable variables like luck, chance and how people perform on the day etc that can decide a result.
It’s only when you see a string of consistent results that you can start to form any realiable conclusion.
Without more to go on than a single result (which was only mentioned due to its exceptionality) we cannot reasonably infer how JF17s might fair against J11s or how PAF and PLAAF pilots compare.
But the fact that it was raised as a highlight, with the PAF pilots coming to congratulate the PLAAF pilot afterwards, would suggest it was not a common occurrence during the exercise or there would be no need to single this one event out so much.
This was a highlight event for the PLAAF, I am sure the PAF would also have plenty of their own highlights from this exercise where their pilots and planes performed better than outsiders and maybe even themselves would have expected. Such is the nature of most large contests/exchanges.
US Top Gun instructors regularly spank F15, F16s and F18s while flying F5s.
We also heard about how a top PLAAF J7 instructor spanked Su27/J11s years ago.
The sporting world is also full of famous examples of top players/teams loosing against opponents that should have had no chance on paper.
Every time you pitch two people/sides against each other, there are going to be a huge number of uncontrollable variables like luck, chance and how people perform on the day etc that can decide a result.
It’s only when you see a string of consistent results that you can start to form any realiable conclusion.
Without more to go on than a single result (which was only mentioned due to its exceptionality) we cannot reasonably infer how JF17s might fair against J11s or how PAF and PLAAF pilots compare.
But the fact that it was raised as a highlight, with the PAF pilots coming to congratulate the PLAAF pilot afterwards, would suggest it was not a common occurrence during the exercise or there would be no need to single this one event out so much.
This was a highlight event for the PLAAF, I am sure the PAF would also have plenty of their own highlights from this exercise where their pilots and planes performed better than outsiders and maybe even themselves would have expected. Such is the nature of most large contests/exchanges.
One thing which people should keep in mind that the JF-17 squadron which participated in the current Eagle-VI exercise was the newest JF-17 squadron in PAF named Minhas re-equipped just last year (April-2016) with JF-17, previously this squadron used to have F-7P jets so they have relatively new pilot for newest JF-17 squadron.
Secondly with the change of fighter Jets the role of the squadron has changed from Interception, CAP & CAS to Multirole including anti-ship role so plz give young champs of these squadron some more time to hone their skills further with JF-17 one or two more challenging exercises would surely help to achieve the desire standards.
Secondly with the change of fighter Jets the role of the squadron has changed from Interception, CAP & CAS to Multirole including anti-ship role so plz give young champs of these squadron some more time to hone their skills further with JF-17 one or two more challenging exercises would surely help to achieve the desire standards.
JF-17 is like a modernised Mig-21 with better kinematic performance and fourth gen electronics. It is still limited by its size when compared to the big birds employed by wealthy and militarily invested nations. I always thought the JF-17 is perfect for smaller countries. But this thinking doesn't always add up when you consider that Singapore bought F-15s over a couple of smaller fighters. Why do the Singaporeans need F-15s?! Fighters in the size of JF-17 are perfect for a country as small as Sing. There are many other examples around the world. If they would prefer western fighters for political reasons, they can get Gripen. If the Indians invested more into Tejas and made it into a very cheap and competent fighter, they would win many export orders in the coming decades as many countries modernise their small and outdated airframes.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Tejas for export ? To who ?
How long has LCA been in development I think prior to 1980s
First prototype was when early 1990s?
In 35 years they have built how many units not even 2 dozen
I think first IAF and Indian Navy has to accept it
50 x JF17 B2 built in 36 months
How long has LCA been in development I think prior to 1980s
First prototype was when early 1990s?
In 35 years they have built how many units not even 2 dozen
I think first IAF and Indian Navy has to accept it
50 x JF17 B2 built in 36 months
Politics is a major factor in the success of exporting military hardware. Gripen, JF-17, and Tejas, are in the same weight and performance class. As comparable as they are objectively, each fighter will have their type of customers. Very few potential customers will realistically be able to choose between all three. If the Indians improved Tejas to Gripen level, they will be finding a lot of orders down the line. I know it's unlikely to head that way since they are restricted by the foreign components used and the relative incompetence of the aircraft. Tejas is an Indian Mirage 2000 since the French didn't allow the Indians to build the M2000, they tried building their own. Despite the limited success of that story, JF-17 should find customers in nations less involved with US hegemony. Why have so many countries only expressed interest in the JF-17 but so few orders made? It's not a problem of production rates or component export barriers (RD-93 approvals etc), so what's the reason? I'm inclined to believe that perhaps the naysayers have a point and the JF-17 just doesn't meet the 4.5 gen requirements demanded by many. The latest versions aren't even all that cheap for countries not China or Pakistan. Giving this fighter an ESA radar with PL-10, PL-12 and future Chinese AAMs will make it a very capable budget Gripen NG. Today, there's no point buying this over older M2000s, Mig-29s, or Gripens, which are at least as capable if not more so. The improvements over 3rd gen aircrafts are just not worth the extra price. It is currently sitting in an unenviable position between late third gen and 4.5 gen light weight fighters.
But we have to understand that this is a decent project from which the Indians would have learnt many aircraft designing and manufacturing techniques from. China learnt much from reverse engineering Mig-21s and Su-27s. Without outside assistance and foreign technologies acquired in whatever way, China would not be at the stage they are today in aircraft design and manufacturing. Lessons learnt are always valuable regardless of the success of the project. That's assuming they learnt something worthwhile. Also I think we're underestimating how many Tejas they plan to acquire especially with the improvements being made however slowly. This reminds me of idiots saying Chinese WS-10 engines are a failure because we keep importing AL-31s, without really understanding the reality and reasons.
Some time people tend to predict future too early based on their life long experience which may prove right or some time false in future
NOTE TO READERS: plz don't take this post as India-Pakistan thing or JF-17 Vs. LCA debate, it is PURELY an effort to highlight the difference of JF-17 and LCA program
As far as the export prospect of both of the jet are concern one thing is common in India & Pakistan that both of these countries can not provide 'complete package'.
Aviation Industry of both countries lack many capabilities which are necessary for independent operations, therefore only that fighter would achieved export success which will be sold to potential customers under successful models of fighter jet sales employed by already develop players of the Aviation Industry.
- Collaboration & / or Consortium like Eurofighter Consortium
- Or Independent Sales model like USA , France & Russia
In case of LCA it is 'too early' to say anything about its export success & the approach under which it will be offered to world market
Give a read to the given link of RAND Corporation report on Tiger Shark Failure to secure export ....
BTW JF-17 is doing what it is intended to do, it does not matter IF a biased observer termed it as Mig-21 or as Kitty Hawk (name of Wright Brother first plane) JF-17 is serving the purpose for which it is produce which is itself an accomplishment as compare to an aviation experiment which is still in search of the PURPOSE.
Regards
NOTE TO READERS: plz don't take this post as India-Pakistan thing or JF-17 Vs. LCA debate, it is PURELY an effort to highlight the difference of JF-17 and LCA program
As far as the export prospect of both of the jet are concern one thing is common in India & Pakistan that both of these countries can not provide 'complete package'.
Aviation Industry of both countries lack many capabilities which are necessary for independent operations, therefore only that fighter would achieved export success which will be sold to potential customers under successful models of fighter jet sales employed by already develop players of the Aviation Industry.
- Collaboration & / or Consortium like Eurofighter Consortium
- Or Independent Sales model like USA , France & Russia
In case of LCA it is 'too early' to say anything about its export success & the approach under which it will be offered to world market
Give a read to the given link of RAND Corporation report on Tiger Shark Failure to secure export ....
BTW JF-17 is doing what it is intended to do, it does not matter IF a biased observer termed it as Mig-21 or as Kitty Hawk (name of Wright Brother first plane) JF-17 is serving the purpose for which it is produce which is itself an accomplishment as compare to an aviation experiment which is still in search of the PURPOSE.
Regards
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Didn’t the latest IAF (or IN, I forget) order for Tejas average out at around $100m per Tejas?
They will find zero orders at even half that price.
How it got to this point is frankly a mystery to all including the Indian’s I’m sure!
All the export barriers the JF17 has faced, so will the Tejas, only worse as it is so far behind the JF17, which is a direct like-for-like competitor.
Unlike the Tejas, the JF17 has achieved its primary goals of providing the PAF with an affordable, sanction proof backbone fighter; and also helping Pakistan to massively improve and expend its aviation industry.
Pakistan is pretty much able to build JF17s independently with a few key components like engines and radar shipped in, but is well on its way to being able to make those domestically as well in the medium to short term depending on what model we are talking about.
The next step up is for Pakistan to design its own future fighters with some technical assistance from China if needed and/or licence production of a 5th gen like the J31 or single engine stealth CAC is rumoured to be developing.
The Tejas programme is wholly incomparable and is turning into a massive financial liability while providing none of the capacity or industrial/technological benefits of the JF17.
To blithely assume the Tejas is at the same level as the JF17 is part of the reason for it becoming such a disaster in the first place.