JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Dizasta1]

I think the crux of the matter is western avionics. What's puzzling is why wouldn't Argentina go for combat aircraft like Su-35s, MiG-35s or J-10s. Considering the area of the country (considerable square miles) and the lengthy coastline. One would have thought that Argentina would've gone for an aircraft that's got a decent range, endurance and combat capability. So why go for a knock-off of a French Mirage?

As for the JF-17s, it would be beneficial for the Thunders to have CFTs incorporated to it. This would improve the combat aircraft's ability to compete for potential customer countries like Argentina. The Block-lll Thunders would be a game changer for Pakistan, enhancing it's war-fighting capabilities. The AESA radar, is at the center of the Block-lll Thunder. A capability that Pakistan Air Force has been pursuing for quite sometime now.

I honestly hope that Argentina would return to stability, both economically and politically. For far too long has Argentina's economy has been the main cause of it's ability to progress as a country.

 

[timepass]

Thunder Rider......Sqn.Black Spiders

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the crux of the matter is western avionics. What's puzzling is why wouldn't Argentina go for combat aircraft like Su-35s, MiG-35s or J-10s. Considering the area of the country (considerable square miles) and the lengthy coastline. One would have thought that Argentina would've gone for an aircraft that's got a decent range, endurance and combat capability. So why go for a knock-off of a French Mirage?

As for the JF-17s, it would be beneficial for the Thunders to have CFTs incorporated to it. This would improve the combat aircraft's ability to compete for potential customer countries like Argentina. The Block-lll Thunders would be a game changer for Pakistan, enhancing it's war-fighting capabilities. The AESA radar, is at the center of the Block-lll Thunder. A capability that Pakistan Air Force has been pursuing for quite sometime now.

I honestly hope that Argentina would return to stability, both economically and politically. For far too long has Argentina's economy has been the main cause of it's ability to progress as a country.

Hi,

The reason that the JF17 is perfect for Pakistan for certain options is because the enemy is across of the fence---. Distance is not an issue for most options---.

Argentina may not think about the JF17 for its utility aircraft as does the Paf---.

Paf was a little TOO EAGER to sell this aircraft

Paf offered this aircraft without a twin seater in operation

It offered the aircraft a little too soon---

The JF 17 is a victim of bad marketing---it would be very difficult for it to come out of it---

If any of you members are familiar with car sales in the U S---they could recall the advertising campaign of TWO japanese luxury cars entering the U S market in the late 80's---

The LEXUS LS400 and the INFINITI Q45

Lexus marketing was bold upfront and right in your face---the Infinity marketing was subtle---sublime---tactful---

The Lexus 400 took off like a rocket ship---the Infiniti Q45 could never catch up.

JF17 would have to re-invent and re-shape itself---have a complete and total combat and strike package---and a totally new marketing strategy---.

 

[Mike North]

Hi,

The reason that the JF17 is perfect for Pakistan for certain options is because the enemy is across of the fence---. Distance is not an issue for most options---.

Argentina may not think about the JF17 for its utility aircraft as does the Paf---.

Paf was a little TOO EAGER to sell this aircraft

Paf offered this aircraft without a twin seater in operation

It offered the aircraft a little too soon---

The JF 17 is a victim of bad marketing---it would be very difficult for it to come out of it---

If any of you members are familiar with car sales in the U S---they could recall the advertising campaign of TWO japanese luxury cars entering the U S market in the late 80's---

The LEXUS LS400 and the INFINITI Q45

Lexus marketing was bold upfront and right in your face---the Infinity marketing was subtle---sublime---tactful---

The Lexus 400 took off like a rocket ship---the Infiniti Q45 could never catch up.

JF17 would have to re-invent and re-shape itself---have a complete and total combat and strike package---and a totally new marketing strategy---.

I agree with what you say but I think the JF-17 is a great airplane and Pakistan has done well with it. Its only purpose is to replace the J-7. It does it very well at a great price. I heard PAF recently bought used F-16s from Jordan so I assume they will keep it as their top fighter for years to come. As for exports only countries with little or no air force and those with J-7 Mig-21 or F-5e are going to be interested. No airplane is going to exceed its design, if PAF had designed a bigger more capable bird they would go broke buying 250 of then to replace the J-7. I guess we will have to wait and see how exports go.

 

[timepass]

I agree with what you say but I think the JF-17 is a great airplane and Pakistan has done well with it. Its only purpose is to replace the J-7. It does it very well at a great price. I heard PAF recently bought used F-16s from Jordan so I assume they will keep it as their top fighter for years to come.

The development & induction of JF17 was multi dimensional (replace J7s & Mirage IIIs/Vs plus counter IAF fighters in same league). Kindly review my previous post below for the same.

One should understand the logic (Factors) behind the PAF acquisitions, few are below;

1. In affordable cost have a capable fighter.
2. Sanctions free with surety of parts supply.
3. Can't compete with India in numbers hence quality is main aspect.

Keeping above points in mind, you can see below current PAF acquisitions vs IAF.

• Mirage III/V & F7PGs can cater all types of MIGs (21/23/27)
• Current JF17 blocks (1 & 2) can cater MIG 29, Jaguar, Mirage 2ks.
• F16s (Block 40/50 MLU + 52) can cater MKIs.

Now for future acquisitions of IAF, PAF have following on the table.

• Current on going MLU program of IAF for M2ks/JAGs/M29s, PAF have JF17-BLK 3 in pipeline (keep in mind PAF wants 250+ JF17s).
• For upcoming Rafale, PAF has an eye on J10D & awaiting for its maturity (suggested numbers 80 - 100).
• For upcoming PAKFA, again PAF keeping an eye on J31s progress (suggested numbers 40).
• Further, PAF still pursuing for F16 - BLK52 (22 more) plus some additional F16s available in the market, this can further enhance PAF ability to face MKIs.

As for exports only countries with little or no air force and those with J-7 Mig-21 or F-5e are going to be interested. No airplane is going to exceed its design, if PAF had designed a bigger more capable bird they would go broke buying 250 of then to replace the J-7. I guess we will have to wait and see how exports go.

JF17 (BLK 1 & 2) is fit for your above statement but BLK3 would be in another league & PAF is quite eager in future to upgrade BLK 2 alteast to BLK 3 standards.

 

[asif iqbal]

JF17 project going great

Export secured
Block I completed
Block II under way
Block III under development

To be honest we cannot ask for any more sucesss because the above is definition of successful fast jet

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree with what you say but I think the JF-17 is a great airplane and Pakistan has done well with it. Its only purpose is to replace the J-7. It does it very well at a great price. I heard PAF recently bought used F-16s from Jordan so I assume they will keep it as their top fighter for years to come. As for exports only countries with little or no air force and those with J-7 Mig-21 or F-5e are going to be interested. No airplane is going to exceed its design, if PAF had designed a bigger more capable bird they would go broke buying 250 of then to replace the J-7. I guess we will have to wait and see how exports go.

Hi,

The cost difference between a Toyota corolla and a toyota camry is miniscule---. It would have been very similar over here as well.

The cost could have gone up by a million or two but not doubled.

You would rather 200 more potent larger aircraft rather than 250 smaller aircraft.

The Paf never anticipated that a naval strike capability would far exceed the ability to fight over the ground.

The JF17 is a wonderful aircraft on its own merits---but comes up short when looking at the larger picture.

 

[Dizasta1]

I agree with what you say but I think the JF-17 is a great airplane and Pakistan has done well with it. Its only purpose is to replace the J-7. It does it very well at a great price. I heard PAF recently bought used F-16s from Jordan so I assume they will keep it as their top fighter for years to come. As for exports only countries with little or no air force and those with J-7 Mig-21 or F-5e are going to be interested. No airplane is going to exceed its design, if PAF had designed a bigger more capable bird they would go broke buying 250 of then to replace the J-7. I guess we will have to wait and see how exports go.

I don't believe you have truly understood the dynamics of Air War between Pakistan and Hindustan. Air War between the two countries would be very fast pace, reaction time would be minimal and air combat would be quick. For that you need nimble, agile fighters. Having larger sized aircraft makes the process of generating greater amount of sorties, that much more difficult. Twin engine, heavier combat aircraft require more maintenance, which is costlier. Countries like America, Russia, China, France, Germany or Japan have the economic clout to afford having twin-engine, heavier combat aircraft like F-15s, Su-35s, Rafales or Eurofighters in large quantities. But this isn't the case with Pakistan. Primary objective of Pakistan Military is to defend Pakistan's territory, with a offensive capability built into it's defensive structure. To be able to employ a robust defense and to make the enemy stumble with a limited yet powerful offence. With that in mind, Pakistan Air Force fighter fleet consists of only single-engine, light-weight to medium-weight fighters in its fleet. Be it the F-16s, JF-17s, F-7s or Mirages. All are of similar characteristics with varied roles. Territory wise, Pakistan does not have the depth to justify having twin-engine, heavy fighters.

In the opening round of air war, if India sends an offensive air strike. They would be in Pakistani territory in a matter of minutes. Ensuing SAM launches, F-16/JF-17 scrambles, both air forces would engage each other quicker than you can blink your eyes. And will likely end up in WVR Combat. All of this doesn't require the aircraft to have the range and endurance of an F-15 or Su-27. What you need is speed, agility and fighter-pilots skilled in 4th-Gen dogfighting. It would be over in a matter of minutes, as time and air-space are in short supply in an Air-War theater between Pakistan and India.

 

[Mike North]

I don't believe you have truly understood the dynamics of Air War between Pakistan and Hindustan. Air War between the two countries would be very fast pace, reaction time would be minimal and air combat would be quick. For that you need nimble, agile fighters. Having larger sized aircraft makes the process of generating greater amount of sorties, that much more difficult. Twin engine, heavier combat aircraft require more maintenance, which is costlier. Countries like America, Russia, China, France, Germany or Japan have the economic clout to afford having twin-engine, heavier combat aircraft like F-15s, Su-35s, Rafales or Eurofighters in large quantities. But this isn't the case with Pakistan. Primary objective of Pakistan Military is to defend Pakistan's territory, with a offensive capability built into it's defensive structure. To be able to employ a robust defense and to make the enemy stumble with a limited yet powerful offence. With that in mind, Pakistan Air Force fighter fleet consists of only single-engine, light-weight to medium-weight fighters in its fleet. Be it the F-16s, JF-17s, F-7s or Mirages. All are of similar characteristics with varied roles. Territory wise, Pakistan does not have the depth to justify having twin-engine, heavy fighters.

In the opening round of air war, if India sends an offensive air strike. They would be in Pakistani territory in a matter of minutes. Ensuing SAM launches, F-16/JF-17 scrambles, both air forces would engage each other quicker than you can blink your eyes. And will likely end up in WVR Combat. All of this doesn't require the aircraft to have the range and endurance of an F-15 or Su-27. What you need is speed, agility and fighter-pilots skilled in 4th-Gen dogfighting. It would be over in a matter of minutes, as time and air-space are in short supply in an Air-War theater between Pakistan and India.

Thank you for your polite and intelligent reply. I am aware and agree with everything in your post but apparently I see the big picture differently. In the bigger picture the JF-17 is only part of a larger air force. F-16s AWACs transports etc place burdens on the budget as well. The Air force is only part of a larger armed forces, the army and navy also spend big chunks of cash. The air force gets only 20 percent of the defense budget so It isnt a priority to the top commanders. The defense budget has grown quite a bit in the last few years as the economy grows. FY 17-18 it climbs to $8.78 billion USD. The air force budget is therefore $1.8 billion USD. Operating and maintaining over 900 aircraft, the bases they fly from, paying and training 3000 pilots plus ground crews and buying weapons cost way more the a couple of billion USD. Pakistan inducted a new fighter and make it themselves, with the $$$ available I'm very impressed. . I feel justified believing a budget of $1.8 billion won't allow an air force with 900 planes the option to spend more on any one piece of equipment , no matter how little . $1.8 billion is nothing. As an example, the total salaries of NFL players alone is $3 billion USD.

I got the numbers from here

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.

 

[Dizasta1]

Thank you for your polite and intelligent reply. I am aware and agree with everything in your post but apparently I see the big picture differently. In the bigger picture the JF-17 is only part of a larger air force. F-16s AWACs transports etc place burdens on the budget as well. The Air force is only part of a larger armed forces, the army and navy also spend big chunks of cash. The air force gets only 20 percent of the defense budget so It isnt a priority to the top commanders. The defense budget has grown quite a bit in the last few years as the economy grows. FY 17-18 it climbs to $8.78 billion USD. The air force budget is therefore $1.8 billion USD. Operating and maintaining over 900 aircraft, the bases they fly from, paying and training 3000 pilots plus ground crews and buying weapons cost way more the a couple of billion USD. Pakistan inducted a new fighter and make it themselves, with the $$$ available I'm very impressed. . I feel justified believing a budget of $1.8 billion won't allow an air force with 900 planes the option to spend more on any one piece of equipment , no matter how little . $1.8 billion is nothing. As an example, the total salaries of NFL players alone is $3 billion USD.

I got the numbers from here

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

You know what really amuses me is that people actually believe these published facts n figures as the accurate truth. When in reality, no country would ever publish the true figures of it's defense budget. America's military budget is allegedly $600+ billion, israel's military budget is 20+ billion and so on. It's all misinformation to keep the other side from knowing where the money is spent and on what. Truthfully speaking, $1.8 billion or $10 billion for Pakistan Air Force, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Pakistan is not a rich nation that can afford to flush tens of billions of dollars on hi-tech military hardware. Practicality trumps overspending rich nations, any day.

Pakistan is not America, but like America and other nations around the globe. They wont be publishing what their actual military budget is. I'm sure even NFL players like any other American, would rather not disclose how much they actually make.