JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
timepass
Brigadier
To answer your query, following is my reply which was posted on Chinese Engine Thread couple of days earlier.
Pakistan is anxiously waiting for J10D.
MastanKhan
Junior Member
Hi,
It is the age old army---air force battle---. Gen Musharraf signed for 36 J10---forced it upon the air force---. Gen Musharraf is gone---PAF says---scr-ew gen Musharraf---.
It is the F16 mafia in the PAF that does not want it---because there are no cushy jobs in the future for them & their kids and no green cards either---.
The kids & family open up spare part and supply shops and become suppliers of parts.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
One way or another, the Pakistan Air Force will pursue the J-10s. A combat aircraft of this pedigree, to have evolved at such rapid pace and have such capabilities. This does not happen by chance and Pakistan Air Force is too smart to let this go unnoticed.
F-16s have been a natural choice for Pakistan Air Force as they have been operating this type of combat aircraft for many years. As such, they have the necessary support infrastructure, fighter-pilots training and proficiency and spares stockpile. But as with everything, it is time to evolve and move on to the next best fighter for Pakistan. The F-16s, as good as they may be, are prone to being sanctioned by America whenever it suits their needs. For Pakistan, it can ill afford being handicapped with such a liability attached to the aircraft. With the regional political climate always on tenterhooks, it's necessary for Pakistan to maintain its military with non-liability hardware and weapons. Risks outweigh the benefits of F-16s and with the news of possible transfer of manufacturing of F-16s to Hindustan. It makes an even stronger case against the combat aircraft. Operating similar aircraft as one's adversary is one thing, but to have your enemy producing the aircraft that forms the cutting edge of PAF's sword, is a different thing altogether.
The J-10 combat aircraft is an outstanding example of Chinese aeronautical engineering. It shows the prowess of a nation whose ambition to be an air power. The capabilities that J-10 comes with are on par or exceed that of the F-16s. One of which is an AESA radar, which is not a capabilitu present on Pakistan Air Force's Block-52 F-16s. The value of a combat system must equate to its ability to perform in war. J-10's ability to perform without hitch (in war). Main reason, its manufacturer is a historical ally of Pakistan and a "Reliable One" at that. The combat aircraft is a natural choice for an air force whose strengths are in its aggressive nature of air combat.
The "F-16 Mafia" is arguing the case based on the present circumstances, not on future requirements. Which makes their argument limited and weak when the case is made for the J-10s. Their argument is that why should Pakistan have combat aircraft which has similar capabilities. What they fail to realize is that the JF-17 Thunder too has similar capabilities to the F-16s. And the reason for Pakistan to pursue the Thunder program all these years is precisely to be free from any Western sanctions. So when Pakistan goes ahead with the J-10 induction in a few years time. It would be signal to the world, that Pakistan does take the threat of sanctions from another country, as determining factor on whether it would chose to buy anything from them or not.
F-16s have been a natural choice for Pakistan Air Force as they have been operating this type of combat aircraft for many years. As such, they have the necessary support infrastructure, fighter-pilots training and proficiency and spares stockpile. But as with everything, it is time to evolve and move on to the next best fighter for Pakistan. The F-16s, as good as they may be, are prone to being sanctioned by America whenever it suits their needs. For Pakistan, it can ill afford being handicapped with such a liability attached to the aircraft. With the regional political climate always on tenterhooks, it's necessary for Pakistan to maintain its military with non-liability hardware and weapons. Risks outweigh the benefits of F-16s and with the news of possible transfer of manufacturing of F-16s to Hindustan. It makes an even stronger case against the combat aircraft. Operating similar aircraft as one's adversary is one thing, but to have your enemy producing the aircraft that forms the cutting edge of PAF's sword, is a different thing altogether.
The J-10 combat aircraft is an outstanding example of Chinese aeronautical engineering. It shows the prowess of a nation whose ambition to be an air power. The capabilities that J-10 comes with are on par or exceed that of the F-16s. One of which is an AESA radar, which is not a capabilitu present on Pakistan Air Force's Block-52 F-16s. The value of a combat system must equate to its ability to perform in war. J-10's ability to perform without hitch (in war). Main reason, its manufacturer is a historical ally of Pakistan and a "Reliable One" at that. The combat aircraft is a natural choice for an air force whose strengths are in its aggressive nature of air combat.
The "F-16 Mafia" is arguing the case based on the present circumstances, not on future requirements. Which makes their argument limited and weak when the case is made for the J-10s. Their argument is that why should Pakistan have combat aircraft which has similar capabilities. What they fail to realize is that the JF-17 Thunder too has similar capabilities to the F-16s. And the reason for Pakistan to pursue the Thunder program all these years is precisely to be free from any Western sanctions. So when Pakistan goes ahead with the J-10 induction in a few years time. It would be signal to the world, that Pakistan does take the threat of sanctions from another country, as determining factor on whether it would chose to buy anything from them or not.
This is the point the "F-16 mafia" can't see.
If, as a lot of news suggests, F-16 production moves to India, all secrets will be gone to New Delhi.
Forget your ECM, and defensive Suite, your enemy knows its secrets.
Forget spares, India will not sell them to Pakistan.
The F-16 is a good, an excellent plane, but who knows better its secret that the people that manufacture them.
timepass
Brigadier
Yes J10 is a fine example of excellence.
News from PAF circles will make me to come to this conclusion that PAF will defiantly go for J10D....
Dizasta1
Senior Member
The Turkish stealth jet program is not something Pakistan Air Force would involve itself to the extent that it would buy or go deep enough in the program to be called a fully committed partner. In the practical sense, Turkey's stealth program would take at least two decades before they (Turkey) would start inducting the aircraft. Which would mean that Pakistan would receive the aircraft at later stage than the Turks.
Bottom line, going the Turkish route is not a realistic option for Pakistan.
timepass
Brigadier
One should understand the logic (Factors) behind the PAF acquisitions, few are below;
- In affordable cost have a capable fighter.
- Sanctions free with surety of parts supply.
- Can't compete with India in numbers hence quality is main aspect.
- Mirage III/V & F7PGs can cater all types of MIGs (21/23/27)
- Current JF17 blocks (1 & 2) can cater MIG 29, Jaguar, Mirage 2ks.
- F16s (Block 40/50 MLU + 52) can cater MKIs.
- Current on going MLU program of IAF for M2ks/JAGs/M29s, PAF have JF17-BLK 3 in pipeline (keep in mind PAF wants 250+ JF17s).
- For upcoming Rafale, PAF has an eye on J10D & awaiting for its maturity (suggested numbers 80 - 100).
- For upcoming PAKFA, again PAF keeping an eye on J31s progress (suggested numbers 40).
- Further, PAF still pursuing for F16 - BLK52 (22 more) plus some additional F16s available in the market, this can further enhance PAF ability to face MKIs.
timepass
Brigadier
Despite selecting refurbished Kfirs from in 2015, is unable to ink a deal. Another opportunity for to market the JF-17???
ARGENTINA REPORTEDLY HALTS (ON-AND-OFF) IAI KFIR BLOCK-60 TALKS
reports that Argentina has – again – halted negotiations for 12-14 Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Kfir Block-60 multi-role fighters. Argentina had in March.
It is not known why Argentina had walked away from negotiations. News reports to technical concerns over the aircraft and regulatory concerns regarding the transfer of American systems, such as General Electric J79 turbojet engines. Pricing was also an issue.
The Argentinian Air Force is currently undergoing a recapitalization program involving the acquisition of new aircraft, among them trainers and helicopters.
In April, Argentina for four Beechcraft T-6C Texan II trainers for $88.2 million U.S. In 2016 the U.S. had approved the sale of 24 T-6C trainers to Argentina for $300 million (with requisite logistics, training and after-sale support). Argentina could order another eight T-6Cs in the near-term.
However, the pursuit of a next-generation combat aircraft platform to replace the Argentinian Air Force’s Lockheed Martin A-4ARs has been a perennial challenge. Buenos Aires had for possible successors, even including non-traditional options from Russia and China.
Argentina had even the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) regarding the . However, Buenos Aires walked away from the platform, due to the risk of cost-escalation from incorporating Western avionics.
Since then, Argentina has been pursuing the IAI Kfir Block-60. The marquee feature of the Kfir Block-60 is that is that is available with the Elta EL/M-2052 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar.
Notes & Comments:
While matters fell through the previous time, Argentina may remain as one of AVIC and PAC’s standard-bearer markets for the JF-17. Simply put, it would be a gateway to the Latin American market, which is in the process of region-wide defence modernization and acquisition efforts.
The JF-17 program has seen substantive progress since Argentina had expressed interest in the platform. With more than 70 aircraft in service with , PAC is at the second-half of the JF-17 Block-II’s production run. Unlike the JF-17 Block-I, the Block-II is a noticeably customized variant comprising of a mix of Chinese, Western and other electronic subsystems. The – for operational conversion training – has also flown.
Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and PAC are also progressing with the , which will be the first major update to the Thunder platform. It will include an AESA radar and, if the , increased wingspan (for additional stores), reduced wing-loading and three-axis digital fly-by-wire flight control system. While the AESA radar is likely to be Chinese, the PAF could potentially look to further tune the aircraft by incorporating additional third-party subsystems. The integration of from Turkey’s Aselsan is an example of this effort.
It is possible that the PAF’s own JF-17 Block-III could align (at least nearer than the Block-I/II) to Argentina’s preferred (Western oriented) configuration. Granted, avionics inputs would have to come from Western vendors that are comfortable with the JF-17, such as Aselsan and Indra. This limits Argentina’s options.
A non-Chinese radar will be a challenge. The issue with a third-party radar (e.g. Leonardo Vixen 1000E) is sourcing medium-range air-to-air missiles (MRAAM) and anti-ship missiles (AShM) from non-Chinese sources. MBDA would necessitate British approval (an obstacle for Argentina), while plausible alternates – e.g. Turkey’s Bozdogan MRAAM and Atmaca AShM – are in the development stage.
If technical aspects are addressed, financing may not be insurmountable. For example, PAC can offer the Argentinian Air Force low-rate or incremental purchasing options (e.g. as was offered to Nigeria). Most of PAC’s production line will support PAF requirements, it is not export-dependent.
ARGENTINA REPORTEDLY HALTS (ON-AND-OFF) IAI KFIR BLOCK-60 TALKS
reports that Argentina has – again – halted negotiations for 12-14 Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Kfir Block-60 multi-role fighters. Argentina had in March.
It is not known why Argentina had walked away from negotiations. News reports to technical concerns over the aircraft and regulatory concerns regarding the transfer of American systems, such as General Electric J79 turbojet engines. Pricing was also an issue.
The Argentinian Air Force is currently undergoing a recapitalization program involving the acquisition of new aircraft, among them trainers and helicopters.
In April, Argentina for four Beechcraft T-6C Texan II trainers for $88.2 million U.S. In 2016 the U.S. had approved the sale of 24 T-6C trainers to Argentina for $300 million (with requisite logistics, training and after-sale support). Argentina could order another eight T-6Cs in the near-term.
However, the pursuit of a next-generation combat aircraft platform to replace the Argentinian Air Force’s Lockheed Martin A-4ARs has been a perennial challenge. Buenos Aires had for possible successors, even including non-traditional options from Russia and China.
Argentina had even the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) regarding the . However, Buenos Aires walked away from the platform, due to the risk of cost-escalation from incorporating Western avionics.
Since then, Argentina has been pursuing the IAI Kfir Block-60. The marquee feature of the Kfir Block-60 is that is that is available with the Elta EL/M-2052 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar.
Notes & Comments:
While matters fell through the previous time, Argentina may remain as one of AVIC and PAC’s standard-bearer markets for the JF-17. Simply put, it would be a gateway to the Latin American market, which is in the process of region-wide defence modernization and acquisition efforts.
The JF-17 program has seen substantive progress since Argentina had expressed interest in the platform. With more than 70 aircraft in service with , PAC is at the second-half of the JF-17 Block-II’s production run. Unlike the JF-17 Block-I, the Block-II is a noticeably customized variant comprising of a mix of Chinese, Western and other electronic subsystems. The – for operational conversion training – has also flown.
Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) and PAC are also progressing with the , which will be the first major update to the Thunder platform. It will include an AESA radar and, if the , increased wingspan (for additional stores), reduced wing-loading and three-axis digital fly-by-wire flight control system. While the AESA radar is likely to be Chinese, the PAF could potentially look to further tune the aircraft by incorporating additional third-party subsystems. The integration of from Turkey’s Aselsan is an example of this effort.
It is possible that the PAF’s own JF-17 Block-III could align (at least nearer than the Block-I/II) to Argentina’s preferred (Western oriented) configuration. Granted, avionics inputs would have to come from Western vendors that are comfortable with the JF-17, such as Aselsan and Indra. This limits Argentina’s options.
A non-Chinese radar will be a challenge. The issue with a third-party radar (e.g. Leonardo Vixen 1000E) is sourcing medium-range air-to-air missiles (MRAAM) and anti-ship missiles (AShM) from non-Chinese sources. MBDA would necessitate British approval (an obstacle for Argentina), while plausible alternates – e.g. Turkey’s Bozdogan MRAAM and Atmaca AShM – are in the development stage.
If technical aspects are addressed, financing may not be insurmountable. For example, PAC can offer the Argentinian Air Force low-rate or incremental purchasing options (e.g. as was offered to Nigeria). Most of PAC’s production line will support PAF requirements, it is not export-dependent.