JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Miragedriver

Brigadier
COULD PAKISTAN RE-APPROACH ARGENTINA ON JF-17?


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With its efforts to buy 14 Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Kfir C.10
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, the Argentine Ministry of Defence is
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12-14 Northrop F-5E Tiger IIs from the U.S. instead. Although cued as a stop-gap fighter (until such time a modern multi-role platform could be acquired), it is evident that the Argentine Air Force has very few options available to fulfill its needs.

Argentina’s
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has been eventful, to say the least. Its program started in 2013 when it tried to acquire a number of Spanish Air Force Mirage F-1s, but the Argentine government’s inability to fund a purchase and a number of technical issues scuttled the deal. Later, Argentina sought ex-Israeli Air Force IAI Kfirs, but uncertainty around the condition of the aged airframes and insufficient backing from the Argentine government put a wall ahead of that route. By 2014, Argentina began to think about Chinese and Russian fighter aircraft; nothing came of that route either. In 2014 or 2015, someone brought up the idea of acquiring the JAS-39 Gripen, but that fighter’s heavy usage of British components made it a non-option. Argentina returned full-circle to the IAI Kfir, but to no avail.

It is evident that Argentina’s fighter acquisition route suffers from two main obstacles: First, Argentina’s inability to fund a purchase with cash. Second, a severe lack of options in terms of new-built multi-role fighters, thus pushing it to mothballed platforms such as the Dassault Mirage F-1, IAI Kfir, and Northrop F-5 Tiger II. In a few ways, Argentina’s situation is not too far from that
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, but the latter does have a new multi-role fighter solution
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as we speak.

But the similarities are genuine, especially in terms of financing and lacking options; this reality could favour Pakistan’s prospects of selling the JF-17 – if it executes a well-targeted engagement strategy.

Argentina has a predisposition to Western systems, and as such, it likely would (as it had before) prefer to use the JF-17 with Western radars, avionics, and air-to-air/air-to-surface munitions. However, its reality does not line up with its expectations. There are no new Western platforms available to it, and if it were to manage to secure one, Western munitions – primarily offered by MBDA – could be withheld due to British influence. There are wild cards in the form of Israel and South Africa, but in these scenarios, Argentina would have to foot the bill for integration and testing.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in the unique situation of actually understanding the Argentine Air Force’s predicament. For example, the PAF would prefer
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, but it understands that its options are few (due to cost and lack of access). Despite this, the PAF still looks for the best available options on the market, irrespective of whether those options are Chinese, Brazilian, South African, Turkish, or even European. It pursues those options, and in the process, absorbs the integration costs – case in point the Mectron MAR-1 anti-radiation missile. This could potentially continue through the Denel Dynamics A-Darter and the Aselsan ASELPOD targeting pod.

In the end, the Argentine Air Force would benefit from an already customized solution tailored to address a dense set of complex problems. These include precision-strike, stand-off range strike, maritime support, air defence (against top quality aerial opponents), controlling costs, and maintaining resiliency in the face of sanctions and other politically precarious situations. In other words, the PAF has absorbed the cost and complexity of tailoring the JF-17 for a very difficult set of problems (arguably above what Argentina is dealing with today), and the benefits are available to the Argentine Air Force.

This would have been a bit more difficult to demonstrate in the JF-17 Block-I days, i.e. when the fighter was only comprised of Chinese-origin major subsystems and munitions. But with the Block-II, the customized nature of the platform is becoming more apparent. By Block-III, it will be very apparent. Furthermore, there is a clear advancement in terms of the JF-17’s avionics and weapon systems. For example, the Block-I and Block-II use third-generation all-aspect within visual range air-to-air missiles (WVRAAM); the Block-III will utilize a high off-boresight fifth-generation WVRAAM.

To summarize, Pakistan would have to clearly demonstrate that the JF-17 is already a customized solution, and that this solution is designed to tackle very complex problems (and is thus sufficient for Argentina). Furthermore, it would have to show the Argentine Air Force that a clear upgrade path for the JF-17 has been laid (due to the PAF’s requirements), and as a result, it would not be burdensome on Argentina. Another key aspect is the forthcoming availability of
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, which will not only serve as a conversion system for the JF-17, but potentially as a lead-in fighter trainer as well.

One central sticking point will be cost. Neither Argentina has the funding to immediately buy the fighters, nor can Pakistan provide it a line of credit or flexible term financing. China may seek to pursue its wider economic interests in Latin America, so it may offer a credit route. On the other hand, because Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will remain busy with producing for the PAF’s needs, there may not be a need for Argentina to put down a deposit. The fighter is already in production. Instead, whenever Argentina has the means to pay for fighters, PAC could allocate a number already in production of the PAF. This can alleviate some of the risk involved for both Argentina and Pakistan.

Link:
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
"This leaves the Argentine military with just two types of jet aircraft A-4’s and IA-63’s and both are subsonic, decades old and barely serviceable. Argentina had looked into buying new Gripen’s from Sweden via Brazil but this was vetoed by the United Kingdom which makes a large number of internal components for the aircraft. They had also looked at JF-17’s from China, but the JF-17s proved too expensive to modify."

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Given that the source is UK defence, I am not too sure of the veracity of the claim about JF-17 being hard to modify.

What must-have modifications could Argentines need? Range maybe? Or availability and integration of Western avionics?
@Miragedriver ?


The only option left is the JF-17 for modern combat aircraft.
F2vXY7V.png


The only “other” option is the domestic construction of the single seat version of the JL-9G. Can be constructed inexpensively and is economical to maintain
OrAvTiN.jpg
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
COULD PAKISTAN RE-APPROACH ARGENTINA ON JF-17?


F2vXY7V.png


With its efforts to buy 14 Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Kfir C.10
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the Argentine Ministry of Defence is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
12-14 Northrop F-5E Tiger IIs from the U.S. instead. Although cued as a stop-gap fighter (until such time a modern multi-role platform could be acquired), it is evident that the Argentine Air Force has very few options available to fulfill its needs.

Argentina’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
has been eventful, to say the least. Its program started in 2013 when it tried to acquire a number of Spanish Air Force Mirage F-1s, but the Argentine government’s inability to fund a purchase and a number of technical issues scuttled the deal. Later, Argentina sought ex-Israeli Air Force IAI Kfirs, but uncertainty around the condition of the aged airframes and insufficient backing from the Argentine government put a wall ahead of that route. By 2014, Argentina began to think about Chinese and Russian fighter aircraft; nothing came of that route either. In 2014 or 2015, someone brought up the idea of acquiring the JAS-39 Gripen, but that fighter’s heavy usage of British components made it a non-option. Argentina returned full-circle to the IAI Kfir, but to no avail.

It is evident that Argentina’s fighter acquisition route suffers from two main obstacles: First, Argentina’s inability to fund a purchase with cash. Second, a severe lack of options in terms of new-built multi-role fighters, thus pushing it to mothballed platforms such as the Dassault Mirage F-1, IAI Kfir, and Northrop F-5 Tiger II. In a few ways, Argentina’s situation is not too far from that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, but the latter does have a new multi-role fighter solution
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
as we speak.

But the similarities are genuine, especially in terms of financing and lacking options; this reality could favour Pakistan’s prospects of selling the JF-17 – if it executes a well-targeted engagement strategy.

Argentina has a predisposition to Western systems, and as such, it likely would (as it had before) prefer to use the JF-17 with Western radars, avionics, and air-to-air/air-to-surface munitions. However, its reality does not line up with its expectations. There are no new Western platforms available to it, and if it were to manage to secure one, Western munitions – primarily offered by MBDA – could be withheld due to British influence. There are wild cards in the form of Israel and South Africa, but in these scenarios, Argentina would have to foot the bill for integration and testing.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in the unique situation of actually understanding the Argentine Air Force’s predicament. For example, the PAF would prefer
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, but it understands that its options are few (due to cost and lack of access). Despite this, the PAF still looks for the best available options on the market, irrespective of whether those options are Chinese, Brazilian, South African, Turkish, or even European. It pursues those options, and in the process, absorbs the integration costs – case in point the Mectron MAR-1 anti-radiation missile. This could potentially continue through the Denel Dynamics A-Darter and the Aselsan ASELPOD targeting pod.

In the end, the Argentine Air Force would benefit from an already customized solution tailored to address a dense set of complex problems. These include precision-strike, stand-off range strike, maritime support, air defence (against top quality aerial opponents), controlling costs, and maintaining resiliency in the face of sanctions and other politically precarious situations. In other words, the PAF has absorbed the cost and complexity of tailoring the JF-17 for a very difficult set of problems (arguably above what Argentina is dealing with today), and the benefits are available to the Argentine Air Force.

This would have been a bit more difficult to demonstrate in the JF-17 Block-I days, i.e. when the fighter was only comprised of Chinese-origin major subsystems and munitions. But with the Block-II, the customized nature of the platform is becoming more apparent. By Block-III, it will be very apparent. Furthermore, there is a clear advancement in terms of the JF-17’s avionics and weapon systems. For example, the Block-I and Block-II use third-generation all-aspect within visual range air-to-air missiles (WVRAAM); the Block-III will utilize a high off-boresight fifth-generation WVRAAM.

To summarize, Pakistan would have to clearly demonstrate that the JF-17 is already a customized solution, and that this solution is designed to tackle very complex problems (and is thus sufficient for Argentina). Furthermore, it would have to show the Argentine Air Force that a clear upgrade path for the JF-17 has been laid (due to the PAF’s requirements), and as a result, it would not be burdensome on Argentina. Another key aspect is the forthcoming availability of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which will not only serve as a conversion system for the JF-17, but potentially as a lead-in fighter trainer as well.

One central sticking point will be cost. Neither Argentina has the funding to immediately buy the fighters, nor can Pakistan provide it a line of credit or flexible term financing. China may seek to pursue its wider economic interests in Latin America, so it may offer a credit route. On the other hand, because Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will remain busy with producing for the PAF’s needs, there may not be a need for Argentina to put down a deposit. The fighter is already in production. Instead, whenever Argentina has the means to pay for fighters, PAC could allocate a number already in production of the PAF. This can alleviate some of the risk involved for both Argentina and Pakistan.

Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Well, Argentina is talking to the US about F-16s and the French about the F-1s.

Depends on whether they want to garner ties with the west or not.

The JF-17 would work for them...but they have to get their training, parts, technology etc, from Pakistan in order to do that and they need to ask themselves if they can count on that or not.

The F-16 is proving its ability to get upgraded and remain very relevant. GDs new F-16 Block 80 is going to be a very good 4.5 gen aircraft. But those are probably not what Argentina could afford.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Well, Argentina is talking to the US about F-16s and the French about the F-1s.

Depends on whether they want to garner ties with the west or not.

The JF-17 would work for them...but they have to get their training, parts, technology etc, from Pakistan in order to do that and they need to ask themselves if they can count on that or not.

The F-16 is proving its ability to get upgraded and remain very relevant. GDs new F-16 Block 80 is going to be a very good 4.5 gen aircraft. But those are probably not what Argentina could afford.

Honestly Jeff, I cannot see Argentina purchasing the F-16, since it would be too expensive to obtain and operate. The F-5 would be nice, but a number closer to 24 to 36 aircraft would be what Argentina needs to replace just the Mirage and another 30 to replace the A-4s. In other words between 54 and 60 aircraft total. Getting enough aircraft will be difficult since besides the US the only other nations that have F-5s in reserve are Saudi Arabia, Jordan and South Korea. It’s also an aging aircraft with 10 to a max of 15 years of life.

The Mirage F-1 would work well (the nation has the infrastructure to maintain Mirages) but the French only have 14 to sell.

The options are getting limited……
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Honestly Jeff, I cannot see Argentina purchasing the F-16, since it would be too expensive to obtain and operate. The F-5 would be nice, but a number closer to 24 to 36 aircraft would be what Argentina needs to replace just the Mirage and another 30 to replace the A-4s. In other words between 54 and 60 aircraft total. Getting enough aircraft will be difficult since besides the US the only other nations that have F-5s in reserve are Saudi Arabia, Jordan and South Korea. It’s also an aging aircraft with 10 to a max of 15 years of life.

The Mirage F-1 would work well (the nation has the infrastructure to maintain Mirages) but the French only have 14 to sell.

The options are getting limited……
Yes they are.

If only the relations had remained better.

There are certainly enough F-16s around and quite a few of them will be going out of service. Perhaps a "deal" can be made at some point for some of them at a decent price.

Do you think that buying JF-17s from Pakistan is a potential solution?
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Yes they are.

If only the relations had remained better.

There are certainly enough F-16s around and quite a few of them will be going out of service. Perhaps a "deal" can be made at some point for some of them at a decent price.

Do you think that buying JF-17s from Pakistan is a potential solution?


I think that it all boils down to maintainability. The Mirage III/V types and the A-4 are easy aircraft to not only maintain, but to operate. The F-5 would fit that bill perfectly. The F-16 would be another story.

According to official Chilean reports they are having difficulty maintain the complexity of the F-16 aircraft purchased. The 10 Block 60 are new and less problematic, however still expensive to operate. The MLU aircraft purchased from Holland have been very problematic and were described as “Hanger Queens”. Additionally the FAC (Fuerza Aérea de Chile) convinced the Colombian Air Force not to purchase used F-16s from the USA due to the expensive maintenance and parts.

Just to be clear myself, I really like the F-16. However, I can see how nations that have been accustom to utilizing small point defense aircraft, which are easy to maintain and operate suddenly switch to a complex 4th generation aircraft there will be a very steep learning and expense curve.

The one advantage that the J-17 (for third world nations) comes with, is that it can use western and eastern munitions and parts/avionics and other necessities can be obtained on the “open market”.

Side note:
Fortunately the new government in Argentina is doing the correct thing by attempting to normalize relations with Britain and heal old wounds. Although it comes late after 12 years of the Communist “K”
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
JF-17 is fast becoming China/Pakistan's version of the Su-35 sale.
Let's see what will happen this November.
I think that it all boils down to maintainability. The Mirage III/V types and the A-4 are easy aircraft to not only maintain, but to operate. The F-5 would fit that bill perfectly. The F-16 would be another story.

According to official Chilean reports they are having difficulty maintain the complexity of the F-16 aircraft purchased. The 10 Block 60 are new and less problematic, however still expensive to operate. The MLU aircraft purchased from Holland have been very problematic and were described as “Hanger Queens”. Additionally the FAC (Fuerza Aérea de Chile) convinced the Colombian Air Force not to purchase used F-16s from the USA due to the expensive maintenance and parts.

Just to be clear myself, I really like the F-16. However, I can see how nations that have been accustom to utilizing small point defense aircraft, which are easy to maintain and operate suddenly switch to a complex 4th generation aircraft there will be a very steep learning and expense curve.

The one advantage that the J-17 (for third world nations) comes with, is that it can use western and eastern munitions and parts/avionics and other necessities can be obtained on the “open market”.

Side note:
Fortunately the new government in Argentina is doing the correct thing by attempting to normalize relations with Britain and heal old wounds. Although it comes late after 12 years of the Communist “K”
Although I myself would like to see JF-17 in Argentinian color, I do not see that happening in the near future, say 5 to 10 years for the following reasons.
1. Argentinian military is more resistent to purchasing weapons from China or Russia due to both their more "right" inclined pose and perceived (true in many aspect) view of western tech being better.
2. Argentina does not have the kind of relationship with China (for financing) as Pakistan has. The former president Kirchner was "left" enough to get closer to China but only to a point (domestic resistent and international pressure?), the new administration is surely not as keen as her, not saying moving to opposite direction, but just less keen?
3. The fact that Argentina even considered second hand F-5 and Mirage and Kifr shows that Argentina's financial difficulty is so severe that JF-17 is "too" expensive to buy without a line of credit. This brings us back to point 2.
4. 5 to 10 years is my wild figure for a geopolitical and economical re-orientation by Argentina. Essentially I am looking beyond the current ruling camp.

Last note, I think it is unfair to blame president Kirchner for the "fault" of general Galtiere's war, BTW Galtiere was surely anticommunist.
 
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