JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

nabil_05

New Member
My main comment in the post was to mention the opening of doors for potential sales if the aircraft could be fitted with a variety of engines in order to ease the operational conversion of the aircraft into that air forces service.

And As I mentioned on several previous posts the cost of maintaining US manufactured engines (cost of parts) is high. This is also true (see previous posts) of French parts (ridiculously high). However, as you mentioned, if parts are not available the aircraft will have reduce hours of service, availability and pilot expertise.

The point could also be made for the Russian supplied engines and the time lag in obtaining spare parts. India suffered this problem with the Mig-29 and the RD-33 engine, which is why they now have their own facility for engine overhauls. However, potential customers of the JF-17 will not have that luxury and will be at the whim of the Russian supple chain unless Pakistan of China can produce the RD-93 or get their new engine operational in installed on the Block 2s

the engine issue was settled with both Russians (putin exclusivey alowed sale regardless of indian pressure), Chinese have taken asurances from Russians regarding engine and spare supplies and sufficient stocks are on order so any issue in this regard appears highly unlikely. Order was for 500 engines IIRC, 100 or so have been delivered.

Also, WS-13 is more of a Chinese improved version with DEEC (digital electrionic engine control) replaced by FADEC (full authority digital engine control) and other refinements such as single crystal ngine blades etc. Point is, this project is pretty well sorted out by both partners (prodominantly by China) so far. ;)
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
its a derivative alright but its designed as a trainer/ light ground attak fighter, not a point defense interceptor akin the J-7 series. For very poor nations it could be feasible but generally it is what it is. :)



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Since it has a large radom, better wing structure and a higher G loading and manuverability than the Mig-21, or J-7 It is much more than just a ground attack aircraft (besides with a 2000kg load it’s not much of a ground attack aircraft). The aircraft is suited for:

A. Providing flight hours at a cheaper cost than that of a full multi roll fighter.

B. Provides an inexpensive aircraft to operate for air patrol of your air space.

C. In a war time situation it can provide point air defense.

Just as Thunderchief aked for a cheap version of the JF-17: It is a cheap aircraft that can supplement an existing fleet of superior Multiroll aircraft. It was never implied that it would be the backbone of your force. Just an inexpensive aircraft to acquire, operate and provide the services listed above in A thru C, nothing more.

Now lets get back to te JF-17. This pointless augment is fatiguing me.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Also, WS-13 is more of a Chinese improved version with DEEC (digital electrionic engine control) replaced by FADEC (full authority digital engine control) and other refinements such as single crystal ngine blades etc. Point is, this project is pretty well sorted out by both partners (prodominantly by China) so far. ;)

You have successfully made my argument:

Potential customers of the JF-17 will be at the whim of the Russian supple chain unless (regardless if Russia cooperates or not) Pakistan and China can produce the RD-93 on their own, or get their new W-13 engine operational in installed on the Block 2.

Once they have control of the engine production (like Volvo has with the F-414). They will have less potential issues with engine part supple and maintenance

If you rely on someone else for you engine. There will always be the possibility of something going wrong. You have to have control of engine production like with the W-13 Just because Russia is cooperating now does not mean continued cooperation, or that there will be a disruption of the parts supple, due to politics, strikes, factor insolvency and a myriad of other possibilities.

The point is having control over the production and maintenance of the aircrafts power plant. This can only be done by having the W-13 operational and installed on the JF-17
 
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nabil_05

New Member
The point is having control over the production and maintenance of the aircrafts power plant. This can only be done by having the W-13 operational and installed on the JF-17

There is a joint marketing, sales and after sale support/maintenance consortium formed between AVIC and PAC for this very purpose, negotiators/ interested buyers are well aware of this. ;)
 

Lion

Senior Member
You have successfully made my argument:

Potential customers of the JF-17 will be at the whim of the Russian supple chain unless (regardless if Russia cooperates or not) Pakistan and China can produce the RD-93 on their own, or get their new W-13 engine operational in installed on the Block 2.

Once they have control of the engine production (like Volvo has with the F-414). They will have less potential issues with engine part supple and maintenance

If you rely on someone else for you engine. There will always be the possibility of something going wrong. You have to have control of engine production like with the W-13 Just because Russia is cooperating now does not mean continued cooperation, or that there will be a disruption of the parts supple, due to politics, strikes, factor insolvency and a myriad of other possibilities.

The point is having control over the production and maintenance of the aircrafts power plant. This can only be done by having the W-13 operational and installed on the JF-17

I am not sure about RD-93 engine but China build a massive overhaul plant handling AL-31 engine. Including replicate a high percentage of the engine parts. So she do not fear an imminent danger of engine suddenly cut off. Same can be say of RD-93 but I am not sure do such plant exist for JF-17 engine.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
The point is having control over the production and maintenance of the aircrafts power plant. This can only be done by having the W-13 operational and installed on the JF-17

I agree , but question remains how much of a priority is WS-13 for China . China doesn't need or want JF-17 for its air force . J-31 could use them instead of RD-93 , but currently PLAAF doesn't want that plane either . Finally , there are some Chinese UAV that could benefit from this engine , but non-afterburning version would be enough for them .

On the other hand , Pakistan could finance development of said engine , but they are on tight budget . Therefore , they would have to sacrifice some things in order to finance engine that would in the end have similar thrust to existing RD-93 .
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
I am not sure about RD-93 engine but China build a massive overhaul plant handling AL-31 engine. Including replicate a high percentage of the engine parts. So she do not fear an imminent danger of engine suddenly cut off. Same can be say of RD-93 but I am not sure do such plant exist for JF-17 engine.

It could be that the AL-31 is a high priority for China. The J-11 is very important in the PLAF. The JF-17 is a low priority and may not enter service in the PLAF.
 

Lion

Senior Member
It could be that the AL-31 is a high priority for China. The J-11 is very important in the PLAF. The JF-17 is a low priority and may not enter service in the PLAF.

Truth but the RD-93 supply is over blown. Putin personally ink the deal regarding re export of RD-93 and repeat assure the engine supply is not a Problem. With China and Russia strategic relationship at all time high and no forsee it will decline soon.

already proven slow induction of JF-17 in PAF is not due to engine supply but rather lack of funds from them. Then regarding no export, it got more to do with buyers lacking the neccesary funds rather than engine problem. Like Egypt a potential buyer being throw into turmoil, how can they still afford fighter?
 

nabil_05

New Member
an inside news states that the recent $100mln fund injection to PAC is for "srilankan" order, we might see first exports soon.

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan’s strained economic condition puts to question the country’s capability to spend billions of rupees on the defence sector on the pretext of enhancing the defence exports and kicking off related strategic ventures.
While the country grapples with worst kind of economic crises owing to crippled industry due to ever-rising inflation, increasing cost of industrial expenditures following massive hike in power tariff as well as security situation, billions of rupees are reportedly being pumped in the strategic projects without any accurate anticipation whether such kind of large-scale investment at the cost of public money would bear any fruit.

Some reports suggest that Pakistan intends to export sophisticated JF-17 Thunder fighter jets to certain countries by next year and $ 100 million (over 10 billion rupees) have been released in this regard. Interestingly, this reported amount is more than four times the size of funds allocated to Pakistan’s defence production sector (2.3 billion rupees) in this year’s fiscal budget.

In the defence budget for the ongoing year, there is no mention of any prioritised project in the Defence Production Division suggesting the exports of JF-17 Thunder and the allocation of over Rs 10 billion for related expenses.
The budgetary allocations for defence and defence production sectors for the fiscal year 2013-14 suggest, of the Rs 627 billion defence budget, the Defence Division has received Rs 4.2 billion and the Defence Production Division, Rs 2.300 billion.

Separately, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) have respectively got Rs 1.3 billion and Rs 5.8 billion. Pakistan Army has got Rs 310 billion in this year’s fiscal budget, which is almost 50 percent of the total defence budget for 2013-14. The PAF got Rs 131 billion that makes 21 percent of the Rs 627 billion defence budget while Pakistan Navy got Rs 63 billion, around 10 percent of the defence funds. Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) got Rs 6.2 billion.

As many as 20 projects have been prioritised for which Rs 3.5 billion have been allocated while only two projects in the Defence Production Division have been prioritised with the allocation of Rs 2.3 billion.

Adding to the mystery shrouding reported plans for exporting JF-17 Thunder, the top government functionaries concerned have kept conspicuous mum over the issue. This correspondent called Rana Tanvir Hussain, Federal Minister for Defence Production thrice at his personal cell number on Friday to get his viewpoint on the issue but he did not speak. His personal assistant Muhammad Bilal said the minister was in a meeting with Governor Punjab Chaudhry Muhammad Sarwar and was not available for comments.

Information Minister Pervaiz Rashid, on contact, expressed inability to comment on the issue saying the matter was not known to him. “Frankly speaking, I haven’t heard of any such development. How can I say anything without having proper knowledge?”

The Secretary Defence Production Lieutenant General (r) Tanvir Tahir was called at his official landline number 051-9270930 but he, according to his staff, was not in the office.

Jointly manufactured by Aviation Industry Corp of China and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), JF-17 Thunder is originally a Chinese product, with the related technology shifted to Pakistan in the recent years. Regarded as a third-generation multipurpose combat jet, the JF-17 Thunder, in technical terms, is known as FC-1 Fierce Dragon.
In an interview with a Chinese news agency in May this year, Chairman PAC Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan had claimed that several countries were interested in buying JF-17 Thunder from Pakistan. The PAC manufactured more than 40 JF-17 Thunder aircraft, he had said

The recent media reports claim Pakistan is to export five to seven JF-17 Thunder jets to the countries like Sri Lanka, Kuwait and Qatar and related deliberations are under way.

Requesting anonymity, a retired air marshal said, the manufacturing cost incurred on JF-17 Thunder is 1.5 billion to two billion rupees, roughly. “It needs to be determined whether there is a significant room for exporting this aircraft and earning profit after incurring such huge amount of money,” he said. Pakistan’s current defence budget of Rs 627 billion has seen 15 percent surge compared to the last year’s defence budget of Rs 545 billion that was revised at Rs 570 billion.



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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Truth but the RD-93 supply is over blown. Putin personally ink the deal regarding re export of RD-93 and repeat assure the engine supply is not a Problem. With China and Russia strategic relationship at all time high and no forsee it will decline soon.

already proven slow induction of JF-17 in PAF is not due to engine supply but rather lack of funds from them. Then regarding no export, it got more to do with buyers lacking the neccesary funds rather than engine problem. Like Egypt a potential buyer being throw into turmoil, how can they still afford fighter?

Yes I can see that. The Chinese may be seeing the JF-17 as an income earner as an export aircraft. Just like the F-5e was with the Americans
 
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