JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Qasim57]

Interesting points there @plawolf. In perspective, the Swedish JAS-39 and Korean F/A-50 that the Turks are considering, are not top-tier aircraft either, both are relatively lightweight aircraft, F/A-50 will be an upgraded trainer aircraft. Against these competitors, the JF-17, especially future "blocks" of the aircraft, can arguably fare better.

Even in the current block, Pakistanis were considering using Selex-Galileo Griffo radar, as Pakistan had done with the Chinese F-7Ps and F-7PGs(MG) in it's inventory. However, when pitted against the Chinese offering, the NRIET KLJ-7, the Chinese radar out-performed the Selex-Galileo one in tests where they were pitted against each other. It should be recognized that Selex-Galileo is a top-tier European vendor which also makes the radar and avionics components of the Eurofighter, though ofcourse the radar offered for the JF-17 wasn't the best product in it's inventory. Also, many people have said that a smaller AESA radar(perhaps with a rotating dish, like JAS-39's AESA project) is also under development by NRIET for future JF-17 blocks. Compared to the F-16s that the Turks already fly, the aircraft has superior manouverability to the F-16 Block-15 that Pakistan has(Block-15 is the most manouverable Block of the F-16), but it's avionics are inferior to the latest Block-52 F-16s that the PAF acquired(PAF officials said the JF-17 is 80% as capable as -52).

Also, it should be noted that the F-16 is a mature and aged design, the JF-17 is in it's infancy. F-16 has come a long way from it's original performance level that it delivered in 1976.

All in all, there are many factors. Turkey's foreign relations definitely come into play. The reason they don't want their whole airforce to be US-dependant is their recent deterioration of relations with the Israelis(Israel still refuses to appologise for the Turks that were killed in the Israeli raid on the Turkish flotila boats). On an entirely different level, what level of performance JF-17 Block II, or future blocks offer, also matters(JF-17 is supposed to have blocks of 50 aircraft, with each newer block using upgraded avionics available then). China may be a little behind the westerners in some areas, but the pace of development is tremendous.

 

[plawolf]

Excellent points Qasim.

Regarding the JAS39, well I don't think you will find many people who would dispute that the Gripen is a more capable aircraft than the JF17, especially the NG version under development.

The F/A-50 is a bit of an unusual choice, and if the Turks want to go for something like that, the JF17 would be a better choice imo, unless they are looking for at the AJT instead of the fighter. In which case the T50 would make more sense as it will have much longer airframe hours (there was rumored to have been a CAC study looking to make a twin seat JF17 to compete for the PLAAF AJT role, but the airframe life was just too short, and increasing the airframe life to AJT standards proved non-viable).

Personally, I think the interest in the F/A-50 may well prove to be a leverage to get better deals out of the Swedes (and Chinese if they were seriously interested in the JF17, but then interested in the JF17 could easily be leverage again) as it is never a good idea to have a single runner for a competition.

Regarding future JF17 variants, well of course we can expect more capable models further down the line, however, the size of the plane will be effectively a fixed constraint. They might sub in a much more powerful engine and add in more things, just like what happened with the F16 over the years, but there is a limit as to when such incremental improvements would just become non-viable, whereby you have reached the limit of the airframe design and you might as well start from scratch.

Given the difference in size, it is hard to see how a JF17 could better an F16 when upgraded to the same level of equipment without making much greater sacrifices in other departments like agility and range, since the F16 is simply bigger and has a much more powerful engine. That means it can carry more stuff and power more and more powerful avionics.

The Turks may well want to look elsewhere for fighters, but the JF17 just doesn't seem to be what they are looking for.

J10s is probably more to their liking, but the Chinese does not seem quite ready to let that cat out of the bag just yet.

 

[CottageLV]

True. I guess the only country in the world that would sell J10 to in the coming 5 years would probably be Pakistan.

 

[asif iqbal]

Turkey was reported to be having problems with it's F-35, something to do with Americans refusing to allow Turkey to modify anything despite being a top-tier partner. Turkey designed their new ALCM to fit within F-35's internal bay, but with their relations with Israel really souring up, the F-35 deal and the level of modification Turkey is offered, is a major "carrot" for the US to hang in front of Turkey. Here is a post from another sister forum on this exact topic:

actually Turkey isnt a top tier partner its a level 3 partner, even UK which is a level 1 partner was refused permission by US to install its own modifications on the F35, its nothing to with Turk-Israel tensions, even Israel actually had difficulty in dealing with Americans, but finally as always they got thier way, Israel however is a different case altogether

secondly Turkish airospace has extensive experience with fighter aircraft, delivering F16s to Egypt and MLUs for Pakistan, they would not be interested in buying JF17, if they were the deal would already have been done, what they are interested in is the fighter design and capabilitys, because Turkey actually has it own indigenous fighter aircraft under development-

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Turkey has a history of operating top end equipment, being a NATO member and with enemys on every border they have every right to, they have sent teams to many countrys for information and experience so they can build systems themselves, they have vision 2020 which is to make all military equipment themselves by in-house Turkish companys, not just for airforce but for navy and army too

 

[Lion]

Turkey has a history of operating top end equipment, being a NATO member and with enemys on every border they have every right to, they have sent teams to many countrys for information and experience so they can build systems themselves, they have vision 2020 which is to make all military equipment themselves by in-house Turkish companys, not just for airforce but for navy and army too

Experience in operating top end equipment and experience in designing a fighter jet is totally different thing. Even their indigenuous fighter is going to come out in 2023. That is going to be a long road to materialise.

What Turkey is doing is to license build all the american stuff. American is very strict with their technology being license out and manufacture aboard since Iran 1979 islamic revolution. The Turkish may obtain incredible manufacturing process but hardly anything worthy regards to design and know how. I will regard Turkey is even more infant than India with regards to aircraft design. But even they join in JF-17 project, I bet much restriction of design and info will be passed on to Turkey from China.

You see Turkey has license build US aircraft and engines for so many years but non- indigenuous design aircraft materialise currently.

 

[asif iqbal]

Experience in operating top end equipment and experience in designing a fighter jet is totally different thing. Even their indigenuous fighter is going to come out in 2023. That is going to be a long road to materialise.

What Turkey is doing is to license build all the american stuff. American is very strict with their technology being license out and manufacture aboard since Iran 1979 islamic revolution. The Turkish may obtain incredible manufacturing process but hardly anything worthy regards to design and know how. I will regard Turkey is even more infant than India with regards to aircraft design. But even they join in JF-17 project, I bet much restriction of design and info will be passed on to Turkey from China.

You see Turkey has license build US aircraft and engines for so many years but non- indigenuous design aircraft materialise currently.

this is not entirely true and I dont think u are aware of turkish military policys as of this last decade or even last 5 years, first is to make own equipment, 2nd if this not possible make with someone (joint-venture), 3rd if first 2 fail only then buy from outside

just like China who is making Airbus sections it will help with production of ARJ21 and C919, yes Turk has been making military equipment but this is not all for nothing, Turkish Aerospace Industries is big organisation, they have worked in design and development of A400 and many other projects and proof of the pudding is in the eating (or whatever the saying is) Turkish navy is making its own LPD, Frigates and Fast attack ships, the army is making almost everything even next generation tank

T129 attack helo is to be equipped with full Turkish avionics, electronics and missiles, u have to start somewhere no one becomes top end military maker inside 5 years, F35 is still years away and 2023 projected date for Turkish fighter is not that long

companys like Roketsan, Aselsan, Bricett, TAI, Otokar and many others will take Turkey forward

 

[Lion]

this is not entirely true and I dont think u are aware of turkish military policys as of this last decade or even last 5 years, first is to make own equipment, 2nd if this not possible make with someone (joint-venture), 3rd if first 2 fail only then buy from outside

just like China who is making Airbus sections it will help with production of ARJ21 and C919, yes Turk has been making military equipment but this is not all for nothing, Turkish Aerospace Industries is big organisation, they have worked in design and development of A400 and many other projects and proof of the pudding is in the eating (or whatever the saying is) Turkish navy is making its own LPD, Frigates and Fast attack ships, the army is making almost everything even next generation tank

T129 attack helo is to be equipped with full Turkish avionics, electronics and missiles, u have to start somewhere no one becomes top end military maker inside 5 years, F35 is still years away and 2023 projected date for Turkish fighter is not that long

companys like Roketsan, Aselsan, Bricett, TAI, Otokar and many others will take Turkey forward

Where is the military aircraft? I never believe Turkey is capable in designing a modern combat jet. Large number of their project is joined venture which the real extend of their real involvement is questionable.

Even they admit their first real combat jet will debut in 2023. I will says its very long. Why? Because they need to start from scratch. As I say production experience and real design experience is a hell lot differents.

 

[Qasim57]

So many different points being raised above.

First to @plawolf. I hope you don't misunderstand me I am not delusional to think that the JF-17 is superior to the JAS-39 Gripen . The facts simply don't support this. The NG has even had it's airframe strengthened, resulting in a greater payload, more weapon pylons added, newer version of the F/A-18's 414 engine delivering more thrust, speed, range, etc.

However, each aircraft Sweden churns out still has a significant amount of US avionics and equipment(20% if I'm not mistaken). While the Korean KAI T-50 Golden Eagle is an advanced trainer, the F/A-50 fighter is supposed to be something more, with this aircraft Korea's stated goal is to develop an aircraft superior to the F-16. But it is a "paper tiger" at the moment, time would tell how much success Korea has on this project. Turkey isn't interested in the JAS-39 in it's current shape either, they're unlikely to go for the NG as well in my opinion. This is because the NG is a Swedish development, already past the planning phase, and the Turks seem to want something they can help develop and indigenise. So, atleast in that form, the NG or the subsequent NG-based further developed variant is only a "paper tiger" as well. But one thing is confirmed, that both these aircraft utilize American avionics and components, and the question arises of how much independence Turkey really wants from the US.

Remember the incident about US espionage equipment being found(only after a crash) in Turkish F-16's sealed avionics components which the Turks aren't even allowed to open/inspect. Both these aircraft also fall into the "lightweight fighter" category the JFT belongs in(so they also have size constraints limiting development, JAS-39 is a little bigger, F/A-50 seems roughly equal to JF-17 or even a little smaller), but US avionics in these aircraft offer better performance to the JF-17 at the moment. But JF-17 is not enormously far behind.

PAF engineers and policy-makers have publically stated that even in it's current form the JF-17 delivers better performance than the late-80's Block-15 F-16s we fly but 80% as effective as the latest Block-52s. Perhaps PAF folks are expected to say that out of bias, but even at Farnborrough, the JF-17 got alot of attention. The British AFM(AirForces Monthly) magazine's chief editor even wrote that it seemed like the aircraft "stole the show", given the tremendous attention and large crowds constantly visiting the booth. Some said that the aircraft took Farnborrough back to it's traditional roots during the cold war, during which "exotic" aircraft from the East would often use the airshow to make a surprise appearance. Of-course no-one can logically take that to mean that this aircraft is like some F-22 Raptor. But even being capable of performing "80% as well as an F-16" really surprised the world, as it is superior to the F-7s that China has widely exported. Also, as the F-16 forms the midrange/backbone of many European/NATO airforces(with many of them still not Block-52 level, being Block-15, -25, and -40), seeing their mid-range fighter's performance only marginally better than China's mid-range fighter would be an uncomfortable reality.

The F-16 started off as a lightweight Within-Visual-Range "day-fighter"(incapable of night attacks), and it improved alot even within the same lightweight-category airframe(as opposed to say, an F-14/15 or SU-30/J-11 class twin-engined heavy fighter airframe). And compared to the F-16 in it's initial stages, the JF-17 has a huge headstart.

An in-depth look at it's avionics reveal a very comprehensive package. The MAWS(Missile Approach Warning System) scans in the IR, UV and visual spectrum, being able to detect incoming missiles from 20 km away. Even the F-15's warning system did not provide such multi-layered coverage until upgrades in the past few years rectified that. The KLJ-7 radar is based on the KLJ-10 used on the J-10 fighter, except that being a lightweight fighter, the large radar dish had to be shrunk, reducing range and granularity. When pitted against some of it's contemporary lightweight-aircraft-category radars offered by Europe, KLJ-7 outperformed their latest offerings(so NRIET outperformed Selex-Galileo, Eurofighter's radar manufacturer in this product category). Admittedly, Europe isn't at the bleeding edge of radar technology development that the US is at, but I think this is still a big deal.

Another point about Turkey going for J-10s. J-10 offers superior performance, it is not a medium-weight fighter like the Euro-Canards. But Turkey is looking for aircraft projects it can collaborate on, and own some percentage of the project. Turkey's own indigenous industry, though advancing rapidly, is uncapable of producing an aircraft project on their own, much like Pakistan. But like China's collaboration with Pakistan is enabling indigenous production of the JF-17, Turks seem to be following the same route. However, China is very unlikely to offer joint-development on the J-10, or offer Turkey some percentage of ownership in the project(like the Koreans were offering them 20% of the F/A-50 project).

China may offer Turkey indigenous production of the JF-17 though. And China may sell J-10s as well, because it was reported that China had offered Burma a "high-low" combination of J-10s and JF-17s to compete with Russian MiG-29(SMTs I think).

Unlike India, Turkey seems to have a smarter aircraft development programme. Rather than trying to invent everything by themselves like the Indians, Turks are focusing on specific areas their industry can deliver, like certain avionics, mission computers, and radars. Rightnow it's very hard to say if they'd go for the JF-17. The other two options they have talked about are lightweight fighters. Turkey's Prime Minister did publically talk about the JF-17 too, expressing interest a few months ago. So I don't think that the JF-17 is completely out of the question. It is important that we not overstate our things like the Indians trying to show everything of theirs in a ridiculously positive and unreasonable light. We should remain logical, and take a factual analysis of the situation, as that helps make an accurate assessment.

And looking at JF-17's avionics and capabilities in-depth, it really doesn't seem that bad. Given China's tremendous pace of development, future versions may equal or even excel Sweden's JAS-39. The AESA radar being developed for JF-17 is arguably likely to out-perform JAS-39's AESA that Selex is developing. I wonder if Swedes regret allowing Pakistan to buy aeronautics heavy machinery from them in order to manufacture Pakistan's share of the airframe and aeronautics components.

 

[asif iqbal]

firstly I dont think Turkey would be interested in JF17, interested as in buying it

secondly I highly doubt that J10 will ever be offered to Turkey, Turkey is crawling with Nato and Americans and China would not want its latest fighter jet in the hands of them

even JF17 is stationed far away from Americans and in turn Americans have kept F16 C/D Block 52+ away from Chinese and have strict rules which base F16s go to, there is no way J10 is going to Turkey

how likely a collaboration is between China and Turkey we will have to see, they have collaborated on land based systems but aviation is another game altogether

 

[Lion]

firstly I dont think Turkey would be interested in JF17, interested as in buying it

secondly I highly doubt that J10 will ever be offered to Turkey, Turkey is crawling with Nato and Americans and China would not want its latest fighter jet in the hands of them

even JF17 is stationed far away from Americans and in turn Americans have kept F16 C/D Block 52+ away from Chinese and have strict rules which base F16s go to, there is no way J10 is going to Turkey

how likely a collaboration is between China and Turkey we will have to see, they have collaborated on land based systems but aviation is another game altogether

I don't see a problem. Don't you see the ironic? As a Pakistan yourself, your country own both JF-17 and F-16 block 52. Soon getting J-10B with AESA which can be say the most advance from Chinese military.

If USA can enforce strict rules for PAF F-16 block 52. I don't see how China can't enforce strict rules on Turkish if Turkey is interested in J-10?

Anyway, Turkish r/s with western has already sour. The Israel/Palestine issue and recent invite of PLAAF to participate in their Air exercise more or less shows Turkey is slowly drifting away from western military.
I can see Turkey is convinced of China rising and is trying to get near her. I am convinced Turkey has no reason to get into good books of USA by disclosing the secret of J-10 if they managed to buy it.