Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

joshuatree said:

I hope the Chinese side gets smarter with the accusations by employing more camera footage of their own.

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Great call, I don't know why China is being so conservative on this issue, they should call for a full exposure on what happened, this is a media war as much as it is a military one

If the Chinese warships used its fire control radar then it's probably most likely the Type 053H3 as Jeff posted, otherwise I would think that newer FFG have track while scan radars, if it was against a Murasame Class Combatent then the Type 053H3 would have a job on its hands be because the Murasame is no push over, even more so if it was after sun set in the dark

I wonder what the captain and crew of the Japanese ship did, usually panic to begin with followed up by evasive manoeuvres, he would probably try and angle his ship showing the narrowest part to minimise his cross section followed by heavy jamming to break the lock

Imagine the heavy boys getting involved like the Type 052C DDG and a Atago-class DDG

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

andyhugfan said:

Thats quite a nice ship. Te Japanese where the first to adopt an AESA radar on a warship, the OPS-24 and the first to adopt an airborne AESA for fighterjets. I wonder what the performance of these radars are compared to the AESA
s now...

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Yes, the Murasame DDGs are potent vessels, all nine of them commissioned in the mid-1990s through ealry 2000s...but also two generations old by Japanese standards.

They have since launched the five ships of the Takanami Class which displace 400 tons more and have newer electronics and sensors, a newer, stronger sonar system, a 5: (127mm) gun rather than the 76m,m gun of the Murasame, and where all 32 VLS cells are Mk-41 as opposed to 16 Mk-41 and 16 Mk-48 of the Murasame Class.


They are now building the Akizuki Class, which add another 400 tons (nearing 7,000 tons full load), have a very modern sensor suite using dual band radars and fire control (the same system installed on their Hyuga class carriers except with an overall Local Area Defense component), more powerful Rolls Royce Gas Turbine Engines, newer sonar (including a new towed array), and a total computing, integrated computing network that is very similar to the new envoironment being built into the new Zumwalt class destroyer by the US Navy. These vessels are link enabled and also Cooperative Engagement (CE) capable, both from AEGIS warships, and themselves utilizing other JMSDF vessels. They are similarly armed to the Takinami Class with 32 Cell Mk-41 VLS, a 5" (127mm) DP main gun, eight SSM-1B (Type 90) anti-shipping missiles, two 20mm MK-15 Phalanx CIWS, the two triple torpedoe launchers, and a pad and hanger for an SH-60J ASW helo. Four of these vessels have already been launched, with two of them commissioned and the other two to commission in 2014 and 2015.


These eighteen destroyers are joined by the JMSDFs AEGIS destroyers (4 x Kongo Class and 2 x Atago Class) to form the real punch of the JMSDF. A total of 24 very modern and powerful destroyers...which does not include the two Hyuga Class (CVH) Helo Carriers (20,000 tons) already in service or the two new 22DDH larger (28,000 tons) class carriers which are planned to be launched in 2013 and 2015, and commissioned in 2015 and 2017 respectively.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

No doubt the JMSDF is a formidable naval power in terms of overall tonnage of modern combatants are second only to the USN with decades of experience

With 2 Hyūga class helicopter destroyers and 2 larger 22DDH they will have a massive ASW capability

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

T-U-P said:

Stay on topic and keep Iraq out of this.

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What are you talking about

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

asif iqbal said:

No doubt the JMSDF is a formidable naval power in terms of overall tonnage of modern combatants are second only to the USN with decades of experience

With 2 Hyūga class helicopter destroyers and 2 larger 22DDH they will have a massive ASW capability

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They are very good at ASW and have developed the assetts to do so, with purpose built flotillas to go after it, and these new powerful Hyūga and follow on carriers...though I think the follow-on carriers have also been designed to be able to embark the Osprey and even the F-35B if necessary later. They have the larger deck edge elevator, larger displacement and bigger hanger, took the CIWS off the bow and out of the flight line if they ever wanted to use it that way.

Guess we will find out...but there is no doubt that they can build an extraordinarily powerful ASW task force...and in fact, during the cold war, that was one of their primary functions in concert with US Naval power that would come into the area, giving the US Task Forces an entire extra ring of ASW protection.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

It's up to the Japanese & Chinese OWLS to seriously discuss ALL issues before the HAWKS take over and the start of "accidental" skirmishes begin. I believe the American EAGLE will be watching very closely at events taking place, and so would the VULTURES and smaller birds (countries) in the Asia-Pacific Region. The choice is OURS. I fear National PRIDE & GREED would override all other considerations & the HAWKS will take centre stage & force the countries into conflicts & eventually WAR. It happened in WW I, II in Europe & Far East (History often repeats itself).

Pointblank said:

Where a naval vessel is considered to be OPSEC. If they need to fight it out in a court, that information will only be revealed in private. Very rarely are ship's movement's declassified, and usually it is well after the fact (maybe even a few decades afterwords).

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Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

This list is a rough comparison between the Japanese and Chinese naval forces. The list doesn't take into account training and technology. List include only major surface combatants AC, LHP, LPD, DDG, FFG and corvettes. But excludes subs and auxiliary ships.

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force surface fleet

Hyūga class LHD (19000 ton) (2)
Atago class DDG (10000 ton) (2)
Kongō class DDG (9500 ton) (4)
Shirane class DDG (7620 ton) (2)
Hatakaze class DDG (4725 ton) (2)
Akizuki class DDG (6800 ton) (1)
Takanami class DDG (6400 ton) (5)
Murasame class DDG (6200 ton) (9)
Asagiri class DDG (4900 ton) (8)
Hatsuyuki class DDG (3100 ton) (10)
Abukuma class DDG (2550 ton) (6)

Japan total (300790 ton) (51 ships) (exclude 19 subs)

People's Liberation Army Navy surface fleet

CV-16 Liaoning AC (67500 ton) (1)
Type 071 class LPD (20000 ton) (3)
Type 052C class DDG (7000 ton) (3)
Type 051C class DDG (7100 ton) (2)
Type 052B class DDG (6500 ton) (2)
Type 052 class DDG (4800 ton) (2)
Type 051B class DDG (6100 ton) (1)
Sovremenny class DDG (7940 ton) (4)
Type 051 class DDG (3670 ton) (10)
Type 054A class FFG (4053 ton) (13)
Type 054 class FFG (4300 ton) (2)
Type 053 Jiangwei class FFG (2400 ton) (14)
Type 053 Jianghu class FFG (1900 ton) (17)

China total (387029 ton) (74 ships) (exclude 60 subs)

useful force (250529 ton) (46 ships) (exclude Luda, Jianghu and the carrier but includes the 14 Type 053 Jiangwei class)

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Comparing only surface combatants kind misses the point in any likely areas on flashpoints, which is that air power is what really counts, and in that area, the Japanese are completely outclassed.

The Japaneae fleet was built to supplement a much bigger and powerful American fleet, and without that American component, their fleet have massive gaping holes in it's dispositions can capabilities, top of the list would be air cover.

Having had a look at the map showing where this incident took place, it is interesting that the Japanese decided to wait until the ships are far closer to Okinawa, and well east of the disputed Diaoyu Islands before they moved in to provoke the PLAN. It would appear that the Japanese have belatedly realised how lousy their tactical and strategic position would be if they picked a fight with China over the Diaoyu Islands, and so have decided to try and move the clash closer to Japanese bases where the PLAAF would be at a disadvantage in terms of range to engagement zone.

Taken in view of the large picture, I am starting to wonder if the Japanese government, or elements within the Japanese government/military really do want to start a small war with China.

They have realised that they will very likely loose such a clash so close to the Chinese mainland and the vast fleets of modern fighters and strikers the PLAAF can bring to bare, and if they loose a fight over the Diaoyu Islands, China may well reclaim them and the Japanese would have lost any and all claim to them forever.

By picking a fight in international waters far from the Disputed islands and closer to Japanese bases, not only does Japan have a far greater chance of coming out on top, but also, more critically, even if they loose, they will only loose ships and men, and any attempt made by China to wrap the Diaoyu Islands into the conflict to take them back would look like a land grab and a major escalation which might force the US to step in on Japan's side.

That is only the worst case scenario, more likely is that the Americans are yanking on Japan's leash regarding the Diaoyu Islands, which in turn led to the Japanese government to place new restrictions on the ROE of Japanese forces operating near or in disputed waters/airspace. Some hotheads in the Japanese military doesn't like that, but can't go against orders, so decided to try and show the Chinese who's boss in international waters where the new ROE do not apply, went too far and the Chinese decided to light them up as a final warning.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

asif iqbal said:

Great call, I don't know why China is being so conservative on this issue, they should call for a full exposure on what happened, this is a media war as much as it is a military one
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China usually don't care too much for media war, or media games, to be more precise this time.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

The stand-off happened when the two ships were only 3km apart(?). At those range guns is probably more useful, and the Japanese have a single 75mm main gun as well as two 20mm phalanx CIWS. The Chinese side would have two 100mm main guns and four 37mm guns.