Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

According to Defense Ministry officials, the 3,953-ton Jiangkai I emitted radar signals at around 5 p.m. Jan. 19 that set off the threat-alarm system onboard a SH-60K helicopter from the MSDF destroyer Onami.
This is the only jewel of information that I gleaned from that otherwise idiotic article. How did they get something as specific as "3,953 tons"?

I understand from the news report that there are basically two types of radar targetting - "guide mode" vs. "track mode" with the former being more serious. I want to ask the question what is the typical SOP (if any) if either type of radar targetting is being placed on you by a foreign vessel? What are the operating parameters in which the navy crews say USN can take in respond to such type of imminent threat? Just wondering how serious is such an issue.
There are such things as 'target quality tracks' meaning the position of the target is known with enough certainty and precision that a missile can be guided into it. Accuracy of tracks is variable depending on the radar and the target's speed and RCS. Also, some radars can only provide range and azimuth ("2D radar"), while other can provide range, azimuth and elevation ("3D radar"). Every ESA is 3D, while OTH radars are usually 2D only. Also, an FCR for SARH missiles works by constantly bouncing a radar beam off the target that the missile uses to home in on. This is known as "painting the target". This is track mode and is distinct from scan mode which is when a radar sweeps the entire sky looking for targets without pinpointing any specific one. Phased array radars can do both; this is known as "track while scan". PESA's do this by rapidly alternating their single beams between tracking one or more targets and scanning the rest of the sky. AESA's do this by delegating some elements to tracking and some elements to scanning, resulting in multiple radar beams from the same panel. Constantly painting a target and maintaining a target quality track good enough to shoot with is obviously considered a more threatening way to irradiate someone, since the next step after that is the actual firing of your missile into that target. I have no doubt the Japanese ship did not actually feel truly threatened, but it is as insulting and annoying as having someone point a loaded gun at you, even if you are confident they will not actually shoot you.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

There are such things as 'target quality tracks' meaning the position of the target is known with enough certainty and precision that a missile can be guided into it. Accuracy of tracks is variable depending on the radar and the target's speed and RCS. Also, some radars can only provide range and azimuth ("2D radar"), while other can provide range, azimuth and elevation ("3D radar").

Constantly painting a target and maintaining a target quality track good enough to shoot with is obviously considered a more threatening way to irradiate someone, since the next step after that is the actual firing of your missile into that target. I have no doubt the Japanese ship did not actually feel truly threatened, but it is as insulting and annoying as having someone point a loaded gun at you, even if you are confident they will not actually shoot you.
Well, the Japanese helo was targeted by a Type 054 frigate...I am not sure which one. The JApanese destroyer which was supposedly targeted was targeted by a Type 053H3 Frigate:

20090807-u4a7b91bfed70f8944rr.jpg

The Japanese vessel that was supposeldy "targeted" by this frigate is a Murasame Class DDG.

JDS_Samidare_DD106.jpg

If they were within 3 km of the Chinese Firgate, which is much older and less capable than this Japanese vessel, then either they were trying to intimidate the Chinese, or the Chinese were either approaching or already in what Japan considers its "territorial waters."

Either way, that destroyer is a fairly good piece of business. Fullload displacement is over 6,000 tons.

Mk-48 - 16 cells (ESSM)
Mk-41 - 16 Cells (ASROC)
Mk-15 x 2 20mm Phalanx CIWS
SSM-1B x 8 JMSDF replacement of Harpoon missile
Type 68 x 2 Triple Torpedoe Launcher
76mm 62 cal DP gun (Oto Melara 3)
1 x SH-60H ASW Helo (Pad and Hanger)
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

If they were within 3 km of the Chinese Firgate, which is much older and less capable than this Japanese vessel, then either they were trying to intimidate the Chinese, or the Chinese were either approaching or already in what Japan considers its "territorial waters."
To be perfectly honest the Chinese consider the Japanese vessel to be in their territorial waters, though obviously the exact circumstances which caused the Chinese vessel to light up the Japanese vessel are not clear to us, whether this was an act of defiance in response to Japanese intimidation, or an act of saber rattling to piss off the Japanese.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

To be perfectly honest the Chinese consider the Japanese vessel to be in their territorial waters, though obviously the exact circumstances which caused the Chinese vessel to light up the Japanese vessel are not clear to us, whether this was an act of defiance in response to Japanese intimidation, or an act of saber rattling to piss off the Japanese.
Exactly, it could have been either. If it keeps up, sooner or later there wil be an incident.

Coast guard vessels nudging one another and bumping into one another are one thing...but now they have both upped the ante and sent warships into the area and if they get into "physical" contact, some people are going to get killed and vessels damaged or sunk...then who knows how far it will go before they reign it in.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

The "where" part can make or break one's case-was that in international/Japan's/China's waters? What's the course and vector of the PLAN ships?- as they can affect the justification of whatever actions followed.

And more importantly JMSDF warships get that close to PLAN warships at times like this...or vice versa, as I've said before, 3 klicks is too bloody close, getting that close to the other side is either an act of challenge or worse, hostile intent.

So don't discount those details like the way you do. At least for now, it's evident that Japan wants to escalate the situation.

Where a naval vessel is considered to be OPSEC. If they need to fight it out in a court, that information will only be revealed in private. Very rarely are ship's movement's declassified, and usually it is well after the fact (maybe even a few decades afterwords).
 

J-XX

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Exactly, it could have been either. If it keeps up, sooner or later there wil be an incident.

Coast guard vessels nudging one another and bumping into one another are one thing...but now they have both upped the ante and sent warships into the area and if they get into "physical" contact, some people are going to get killed and vessels damaged or sunk...then who knows how far it will go before they reign it in.

I can guarantee you, it certainly won't be China that will be giving in to the Japanese. Not after what happened in 1895 and WW2 (especial Nanking). Japan has humiliated China twice and this time China will protect its pride and dignity.
This will be a fight to the finish.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I can guarantee you, it certainly won't be China that will be giving in to the Japanese. Not after what happened in 1895 and WW2 (especial Nanking). Japan has humiliated China twice and this time China will protect its pride and dignity.
This will be a fight to the finish.
There will be no fight this time unless one or both countries are completely stupid.
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I can guarantee you, it certainly won't be China that will be giving in to the Japanese. Not after what happened in 1895 and WW2 (especial Nanking). Japan has humiliated China twice and this time China will protect its pride and dignity.
This will be a fight to the finish.

Depends on where the "finish line" is...or to be more precise, at which point the US going to yank the chains. For now at least, it's either continue to simmer or heat up slowly till Abe's trip to the US later this month, then we'll see which way it goes.
 

ManilaBoy45

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Official: Chinese Frigate Locked Radar on Japanese Navy :mad:

Feb. 5, 2013 - 07:24AM |
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

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TOKYO — A Chinese military frigate has locked its weapon-targeting radar on a Japanese navy vessel on at least one occasion, Japan’s defense minister said Feb. 5, in an apparent upping of the stakes in a bitter territorial row.

“On January 30, something like fire-control radar was directed at a Japan Self-Defense Maritime escort ship in the East China Sea. The defense ministry today confirmed radar for targeting was used,” Itsunori Onodera told reporters in Tokyo.

Onodera said a Japanese military helicopter was also locked with a similar radar a few days earlier. “Directing such radar is very abnormal,” he said. “We recognize it would create a very dangerous situation if a single misstep occurred.
 

andyhugfan

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Well, the Japanese helo was targeted by a Type 054 frigate...I am not sure which one. The JApanese destroyer which was supposedly targeted was targeted by a Type 053H3 Frigate:

20090807-u4a7b91bfed70f8944rr.jpg

The Japanese vessel that was supposeldy "targeted" by this frigate is a Murasame Class DDG.

JDS_Samidare_DD106.jpg

If they were within 3 km of the Chinese Firgate, which is much older and less capable than this Japanese vessel, then either they were trying to intimidate the Chinese, or the Chinese were either approaching or already in what Japan considers its "territorial waters."

Either way, that destroyer is a fairly good piece of business. Fullload displacement is over 6,000 tons.

Mk-48 - 16 cells (ESSM)
Mk-41 - 16 Cells (ASROC)
Mk-15 x 2 20mm Phalanx CIWS
SSM-1B x 8 JMSDF replacement of Harpoon missile
Type 68 x 2 Triple Torpedoe Launcher
76mm 62 cal DP gun (Oto Melara 3)
1 x SH-60H ASW Helo (Pad and Hanger)


Thats quite a nice ship. Te Japanese where the first to adopt an AESA radar on a warship, the OPS-24 and the first to adopt an airborne AESA for fighterjets. I wonder what the performance of these radars are compared to the AESA
s now...
 
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