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tphuang

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

also in terms of size, it's close to that of Invincible class aircraft carrier. I can definitely see this and the Dodko class operate F-35s in the future.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Well it seems almost like you're treating it like it really is going to be a full-on carrier.

Though, I do think you have a point about it being potentially capable of far more than is being said. Maybe the idea is to have the potential to be a carrier but not for it to be a carrier. Basically making something than can be made into a carrier should such a need arise, without having to go to the trouble of building one.
 

Jeff Head

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Well it seems almost like you're treating it like it really is going to be a full-on carrier.
Not really. it is too small to be a full-on carrier. It just has potential for some VSTOL operations is all.

Though, I do think you have a point about it being potentially capable of far more than is being said. Maybe the idea is to have the potential to be a carrier but not for it to be a carrier. Basically making something than can be made into a carrier should such a need arise, without having to go to the trouble of building one.
This is much more like what I have been saying. They are bilding modern helo-carriers, that may well be principally used for that...but I also believe they have built in the capability to use the F-35 if necessary. The day that we hear of the JMSDF buying the VSTOL version of the F-35, or developing something similar themselves, will be the day we will know that they intend to use such a capability.

Until then...either way, they are still going to be very capable vessels.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

A lot of what constitutes Sea Power is appearance, potential risk to a potential enemy. These ships may well never embark F-35s, but they don't have too. As long as the potential is there, the risk is there. The JMSDF is proving replacements for the Haruna/Shirane DDHs and may well keep them in that role for their entire careers. But if the regional situation alters, they have in these ships mobilisation assets to upgrade the capability of the fleet at relatively short notice (months rather than years to build a carrier from scratch) as aircraft can be aquired and put into service much quicker than a ship can. Japanese pilots and ground crew could theoretically serve on exchange postings with foreign navies to train up without having to spend a small fortune setting up facilities in Japan beforehand, cutting the time needed to bring the aircraft into service. Just the presence of Japanese personnel in F-35 sqns abroad might be enough to convey the message to potential opponents that the next step would be to upgrade the DDHs to mini strike carriers ( a lightning packs quite a punch, so even a small number pose a significant threat to an adversarie's fleet or land bases). 90% of naval warfare is potential threat/risk, which is why 'Fleet in Being' has often proved succesful as a tactic.
 

Jeff Head

General
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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

A lot of what constitutes Sea Power is appearance, potential risk to a potential enemy. These ships may well never embark F-35s, but they don't have too. As long as the potential is there, the risk is there. The JMSDF is proving replacements for the Haruna/Shirane DDHs and may well keep them in that role for their entire careers. But if the regional situation alters, they have in these ships mobilisation assets to upgrade the capability of the fleet at relatively short notice (months rather than years to build a carrier from scratch) as aircraft can be aquired and put into service much quicker than a ship can. Japanese pilots and ground crew could theoretically serve on exchange postings with foreign navies to train up without having to spend a small fortune setting up facilities in Japan beforehand, cutting the time needed to bring the aircraft into service. Just the presence of Japanese personnel in F-35 sqns abroad might be enough to convey the message to potential opponents that the next step would be to upgrade the DDHs to mini strike carriers ( a lightning packs quite a punch, so even a small number pose a significant threat to an adversarie's fleet or land bases). 90% of naval warfare is potential threat/risk, which is why 'Fleet in Being' has often proved succesful as a tactic.
With this design, the Japanese, IMHO, have done just that. They have created a vessel that can handle flotilla battle management, perform very, very well in the ASW role, be very effective in OTH air assault if necessary, and provide tremendous capability in humanitarian relief when necessary.

It is equally clear from the design, that should the need arise, they could have two "jeep", or, as you said, mini-strike carriers, available on relatively quick notice. I do not know if, from the JMSDF viewpoint, that need will arise. But I recognize that they certainly have positioned themselves for it...and wisely so I might add.
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

:eek:ff jeff are you going to add a CVF article since now its thought main gate as that was the reason why it wasn't added the first time

on the DDH i don't like the lift layout and for the launch of the F35 the would need the whole deck even if they had a ski jump [the invinsable use the whole deck even with a Ski Jump] and without it and launching the area marked in plan it would have to have 5% fuel and no weapons to take off and unlike the DODOKO south Korean LHD the deck isn't coted with Ureathean.

if lucky it will be able to operated an airgroup like Giuseppe Garbiledes
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

:eek:ff jeff are you going to add a CVF article since now its thought main gate as that was the reason why it wasn't added the first time

on the DDH i don't like the lift layout and for the launch of the F35 the would need the whole deck even if they had a ski jump [the invinsable use the whole deck even with a Ski Jump] and without it and launching the area marked in plan it would have to have 5% fuel and no weapons to take off and unlike the DODOKO south Korean LHD the deck isn't coted with Ureathean.

if lucky it will be able to operated an airgroup like Giuseppe Garbiledes

Here here on the CVF article Jeff. Harriers launching from an Invincible don't use the whole deck length, they typically begin their takeoff roll from about halfway to two thirds of the distance from the ski jump, allowing up to four Harriers to be 'spotted' ready for launch simltaneously. Given the necessary separation between the aircraft, the first to launch must start it's run from the halfway position. The point of the ski jump is that half the takeoff run is completed AFTER the harrier leaves the end of the ramp. Cmdr Doug Taylor who invented the concept back in the early seventies originally called it 'The Runway in the Sky' specifically because after leaving the ramp the aircraft will not have reached wingborne flying speed (normal ramp exit speed is about 80 knots) but is beginning to generate lift from it's wings. This is added to the upward momentum imparted by the ramp, similar to going over a hump backed bridge in a car, but unlike a car the aircraft is subject to continued acceleration and thus reaches fully wingborne flight before it reaches the apogee of it's trajectory, at which point it begins flying conventionally. The upward trajectory imparted by the ramp has the added virtue of lifting the aircraft away from the level of the deck so that if there is an emergency the pilot has more time to react than with the flat trajectory of a catapult launch, so it improves pilot safety.

The DDHs have ample deck space for spotting two or three aircraft for launch, as this 'artists impression' shows:
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fitting a bow ski jump as shown would be a straight forward proposition as it is a simple steel structure (with no moving parts!)and in the position shown would mean no loss of helo landing spots. A simple modification which could be applied in a few months if required.
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Here here on the CVF article Jeff. Harriers launching from an Invincible don't use the whole deck length, they typically begin their takeoff roll from about halfway to two thirds of the distance from the ski jump, allowing up to four Harriers to be 'spotted' ready for launch simltaneously. Given the necessary separation between the aircraft, the first to launch must start it's run from the halfway position. The point of the ski jump is that half the takeoff run is completed AFTER the harrier leaves the end of the ramp. Cmdr Doug Taylor who invented the concept back in the early seventies originally called it 'The Runway in the Sky' specifically because after leaving the ramp the aircraft will not have reached wingborne flying speed (normal ramp exit speed is about 80 knots) but is beginning to generate lift from it's wings. This is added to the upward momentum imparted by the ramp, similar to going over a hump backed bridge in a car, but unlike a car the aircraft is subject to continued acceleration and thus reaches fully wingborne flight before it reaches the apogee of it's trajectory, at which point it begins flying conventionally. The upward trajectory imparted by the ramp has the added virtue of lifting the aircraft away from the level of the deck so that if there is an emergency the pilot has more time to react than with the flat trajectory of a catapult launch, so it improves pilot safety.

The DDHs have ample deck space for spotting two or three aircraft for launch, as this 'artists impression' shows:
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fitting a bow ski jump as shown would be a straight forward proposition as it is a simple steel structure (with no moving parts!)and in the position shown would mean no loss of helo landing spots. A simple modification which could be applied in a few months if required.

thanks for the better image its much more accurate than Jeffs [no offense as i think its one of yours] i notice you added a bit to the front of the ship making the beam the same along the length of the ship.
i always thought it took the whole length of the ship after seeing FAA services when it showed the turnaround of the harriers and it looked like it used the whole deck.
i would have preferred the DDH to have to lifts of the same size
 

Jeff Head

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

thanks for the better image its much more accurate than Jeffs [no offense as i think its one of yours] i notice you added a bit to the front of the ship making the beam the same along the length of the ship.
i always thought it took the whole length of the ship after seeing FAA services when it showed the turnaround of the harriers and it looked like it used the whole deck.
i would have preferred the DDH to have to lifts of the same size
Actually, my pic is a pic of the official artist conception of the vessel. I simply added the F-35s, two extra landing spots, and a single stripe for the take-off run...doing it in the manner that the USMC does off the US flat deck amphibs.

Obi Wan took the same pic and added a ski jump to the vessel, which would be relatively easy to do to get the added benefit of that ski jump.

I believe both pics are "accurate". Obi Wans is definitely the "better" solution for VSTOL IMHO, but would require a structural addition which the initial pic would not. Not changing the vessel structurally might be more realistic for the Japanese political situation if they ever wanted the VSTOL capability...even if not the best technical solution.

As to the elevators, I agree. Deck edge elevators of the same size would be better. As it is, they have put them square in the middle of any landing/take-off operations of any large consequence. The aft one is bigger to accomodate the larger helos and would certainly fit the F-35 as well if ever desired.

As we have said, it is very possible (even probable) that they never will operate off of those decks...but I believe the capability also exists to add them later is they so desire.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

As I said earlier, the Japanese don't have to aquire the capability (F-35Bs) to be able to present the 'threat' that they could upgrade at short notice if they so chose. As things are they can with all honesty put their hands on their hearts and say "What carriers? These are just DDHs," whilst giving a knowing an inscrutable look to their regional neighbours as if to say "you upgrade and we upgrade, and we can do it quicker than you!". It's all about potential. Classic Sea Power strategy, Risk. Seems the JMSDF still teach Mahan to their cadets...
 
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