Japan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

SamuraiBlue

Captain
JSDF could definitely go for a P-1 based AEW&C but I'm not sure if international customers will line up for it when other options exist such as the 737 based AEW&C, which is in a similar weight class as the P-1 but only has two engines rather than four which I presume has some benefits for fuel efficiency... not to mention being based off a widely used commercial aircraft.

The same logic goes for any P-8 vs P-1 comparison for the MPA market, though if P-1 is substantially cheaper than P-8 and if they offer greater options for customers to modify P-1 then they could gain some ground.

Going over the Boeing 737 AEW&C specs, I believe neither Boeing or Airbus has a sufficient platform to support a future AWACS system and this is the very reason why the US had not develop a replacement for the E-3 even though it is 40 years since the first plane had been launched.

The problem is amount of electricity that is required and redundancy. The radar systems requires tremendous amounts of it. The Boeing 737 AEW&C had to mount a special electric generator on to the the engines which is obvious looking at the huge bulge on the left hand side of each engine. This means if one engine fails although it would be able to fly would still have to head back to base since there is not enough electricity to power all the electronics within the plane. This would be a severe flaw during a mission critical situation.

The only way I can think of to negate this problem is to select a platform with more then two engines which neither manufacturer offers in the right size. Sure Boeing can offer the 777 but it would be too big for the mission meaning it would be more expensive in acquiring and require more fuel to run. Airbus only has the 380 which is even bigger than the 777.
The two companies would probably not develop a platform to meet AWACS requirements since it would not sell in the commercial airliner market so it would have to be a mass remodel placing three or more engines on present model or a mission specific platform which P-1 is the only one that fits the bill.
 
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Skywatcher

Captain
Well we will have to wait and see how the whole pitch pans out for Britain's MPA procurement plans.

Here is another interesting presentation I found while doing some net surfing.

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IHI's jet engine business plan which was announce last year including the next generation fighter jet engine called Hyper Slim Engine (HSE). This engine will be based on the XF5-1 engine powering the ATD-X. The abbreviation X for XF-5 obviously standed for eXperimental in line with the whole ATD-X project.
IHI is targeting an one meter diameter engine with core temperature reaching 1800°C with power-out put at 15 tonnes.
This will allow the fighter jet achieve supercruise and obtain a sleeker profile to reduce RCS while maintaining a large internal missile bay.

20141112-51.JPG


They plan to develop a prototype by 2018.

Here is a link to an article in Japanese outlining the development.
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Interesting, though that could raise costs somewhat compared to a WS-15 or F-119 with a presumably wider fan diameter.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The four E-2Ds are just stop gaps requiring to replace the first E-2Cs which were not the best fit in the first place.
The original plan was to acquire 10 E-767 but due to high cost and close to end cycle of the radar dome as well as the 767 platform the plan was reduced to 4 planes.
Europe has a more pressing demand with Britain owning 7 E-3 and NATO with 18 planes all introduced in the mid 80's to early 90's.
Still, the idea seems for the JSDF to buy E-2Ds to replace the E-2Cs as they come out of service.

Do you think that the JMSDF is going to switch and go for an AEW P-1?

If you believe that there is a larger market out there for the UK and other Eurpoean countries to replace their AEW&C aircraft with a AEW P-1, I suppose that is a business decision the manufacturer and Japan are going to have to make if they think it justifies that type of expenditure to go after.

Right now the E-2C is operated by:

Egypt, France, Japan, Mexico, Taiwan and the US.

(Note: The US also operates eight (I believe) P-3s that were converted to an AEW role for Customs, Immigration, DEA, and Homeland Security)

E-3s are operated by France, NATO, Saudi Arabia, the UK, and the US.

Other nations operate various other platforms, most of them less capable, but some of them, like the 737 AEW&C platform that Australia, South Korea and Turkey are using (a total of 13 aircraft I believe) are pretty decent. Of course there are the Russian and Chinese aircraft which are also capable, and which may be offered on the market as well.

IMHO, the Maritime AEW&C market is pretty good sized. Do you think Japan is going to aggressively enter into that market with a AEW P-1?

I would think that before splintering their efforts they would try and make the P-1 itself vialble in the market.

Finally, it is possible that a good portion of that market may be addressed by retiring E-2C aircraft that have a tremendous capability already and can have their life extended. There are going to be a lot of those out there.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Is there any Japanese indigenous modern radar in service now?, I thought all are Americans
You need to do a lot more research before you seriously ask such a question.

Of course there are...and they are very good at it.

I think Janiz thought, since you did not add a LOL onto it, that you were somehow dissing the Japanese.

I think you are simply not well informed regarding the capabilities and the equipment that the Japanese have developed themselves.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Going over the Boeing 737 AEW&C specs, I believe neither Boeing or Airbus has a sufficient platform to support a future AWACS system and this is the very reason why the US had not develop a replacement for the E-3 even though it is 40 years since the first plane had been launched.

The only way I can think of to negate this problem is to select a platform with more then two engines which neither manufacturer offers in the right size. Sure Boeing can offer the 777 but it would be too big for the mission meaning it would be more expensive...
Well, the US is very good at taking old aircraft and incrementally improving them, and regularly maintiaing them and keep them not only flying, but in very decent shape for long priods of time.

The E-3 is one of these and is, as you know, based on the 707 frame (as is the E-8) which is long since out of production. But the E-3s have been upgraded numerous times.

Right now, Boeing is flight testing the new Block 40/45 E-3s. They will contain upgrades to the mission crew and air battle management areas, as well as significant upgrades to the electronics.

Another program for consideration right now is AMP, the Avionics Modernization Program for the E-3s. This would add glass cockpits to the E-3s, and pssibly new turbofan engines, The idea is that those new engines woud provide for longer range, more time on station, and sallow them to use shorter runways. Now that the E-8s are receiving tnew P&W turbofans, the Air Force is studying the possibility of replacing the E-3's engines with trhe same or similar engines as a potential part of AMP.

So, the E-3s are okay right now, and can be extended...but a replacement would be nice, and sooner or later is going to be required.

The best recent chance for such a replacement was the E-10 M2CA program which was going to build new aircraft based on the 767. (Similar to the E-767s that the Japanese got). But this program was significantly reduced in 2006, and then cancelled at the end of 2007 I believe. Right now the only plans are the types of upgrade plans mentioned above.
 

Scratch

Captain
Regarding the lack of 3+ engined aircraft, I'm quiet certain a nation, or NATO for that matter, could acquire second hand A-340s, which would still be a lot younger than any 707 airframe, and convert those into new AWACS. A large, latest gen x-band AESA, of which there are a lot, on top. And some kind of AESA UHF radar in bulges along the sides of the forward fuselage.
The P-1 as an AEW at first glance seems to sit in a difficult spot. Below the large fleet AWACS, nations like the UK could probably use something in the buissess jet class, building on the R-1 Sentinel.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You need to do a lot more research before you seriously ask such a question.

Of course there are...and they are very good at it.

I think Janiz thought, since you did not add a LOL onto it, that you were somehow dissing the Japanese.

I think you are simply not well informed regarding the capabilities and the equipment that the Japanese have developed themselves.

Actually, antiterror asks a valid question -- the JSDF do not have an indigenous AEW&C radar in service. Their E-767s and E-2s are of course US designs.

Obviously there are a number of Japanese domestic radars aboard other platforms, and he might have been talking about radars aboard other platforms, but it is also worth noting that they have not developed a radar for AEW&C before... though I'm sure it is within their capability
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Actually, antiterror asks a valid question -- the JSDF do not have an indigenous AEW&C radar in service.
But that is not the question he asked.

Is there any Japanese indigenous modern radar in service now?,

Obviously there are a number of Japanese domestic radars aboard other platforms, and he might have been talking about radars aboard other platforms,
Which is exactly the point that others made in response.

But it is also worth noting that they have not developed a radar for AEW&C before... though I'm sure it is within their capability
Which is fine and provides the specificity that was missing from the original question.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Going over the Boeing 737 AEW&C specs, I believe neither Boeing or Airbus has a sufficient platform to support a future AWACS system and this is the very reason why the US had not develop a replacement for the E-3 even though it is 40 years since the first plane had been launched.

The E-10 M2CA was to be the USAF's next generation AEW&C, SIGINT, and SAR platform -- based off the boeing 767.
There were a variety of reasons why the E-10 was eventually cancelled, but I think the fact that it was based off the 767 platform is not one of them. In fact I would argue that having a larger platform for one's AEW&C is better than having a smaller one as that means more consoles, more power, more processing, more fuel and endurance, and more space for crew rest during missions.

The Europeans of course have the A330 which is a similarly sized platform to the 767.
The Indians are even developing an AEW&C based off the A330.
And I'm sure you're familiar with the JASDF operating their Boeing 767 based E-767 AEW&C.


The problem is amount of electricity that is required and redundancy. The radar systems requires tremendous amounts of it. The Boeing 737 AEW&C had to mount a special electric generator on to the the engines which is obvious looking at the huge bulge on the left hand side of each engine. This means if one engine fails although it would be able to fly would still have to head back to base since there is not enough electricity to power all the electronics within the plane. This would be a severe flaw during a mission critical situation.

There's no reason why additional power generation couldn't be mounted on a larger twin engine platform rather than a smaller four engine platform. In fact I would argue that having a larger aircraft with accompanying large and powerful engines are more important for an AEW&C than having multiple engines.

That said, there's no reason why powerful radars cannot be mounted on smaller platforms: such as the E-2, G550 Eitan AEW&C, or C-295 AEW&C.


The only way I can think of to negate this problem is to select a platform with more then two engines which neither manufacturer offers in the right size. Sure Boeing can offer the 777 but it would be too big for the mission meaning it would be more expensive in acquiring and require more fuel to run. Airbus only has the 380 which is even bigger than the 777.
The two companies would probably not develop a platform to meet AWACS requirements since it would not sell in the commercial airliner market so it would have to be a mass remodel placing three or more engines on present model or a mission specific platform which P-1 is the only one that fits the bill.

I'm not sure why you believe that AEW&C uniquely requires more than two engines -- an AEW&C needs redundancy and reliability as much as a tanker, as much as an MPA, or even as a long haul commercial airliner... and the proliferation of these platforms should be evidence for the reliability of twin engine large platforms for those missions.

A330 MRTT, KC-767, KC-46 are modern twin engine tankers, built in large numbers.
737 AEW, E-767, and India's new A330 based AEW&C are all twin engine AEW&Cs.
And of course the P-8 will probably be the most widely proliferated MPA of the 21st century, and it is twin engined.


I think there's enough evidence of the reliability of twin engine platforms to suggest that they are far from unreliable or insufficient for acting as an AEW&C.

As for the P-1 acting as an AEW&C -- comparing it to the likes of Boeing 767 are obviously unfair given P-1 has an MTOW of 80 tons, closer to the P-8's 86 tons than the 767's 143-200+ tons (depending on variant).
So really it is more fair to compare P-1 with the Boeing 767 as AEW&C platforms given their similar weight:
  • P-1 does of course have four engines which gives it greater redundancy in case of engine failure -- but at the same time the sheer number of new twin engine military aircraft from AEW&C, MPAs, and tankers makes me think the twin engine option is sufficiently reliable for long endurance missions. Maybe JMSDF preferred having a four engine MPA for its own requirements, but USN is obviously quite happy with their twin engine P-8 and all the air forces which operate or plan to operate P-8s, KC-46s KC-767s, A330 MRTTs, E-737s, and E-767 (only Japan) seem quite happy with the reliability of twin engine platforms
  • P-1 does have more engines, but does that mean more power? After all each of P-1's engines is only about half the thrust of a Boeing 767 engine. F7 turbofan has a thrust of 60kN while CFM-56-7 is rated at 120kN. I'm not sure how this translates to power generation, but I think it's a bit illogical to presume that just because an aircraft has more engines means it can generate more electricity. Engines can be more powerful than one another, and additional generators can be mounted within an aircraft if the aircraft is larger.
  • P-1's four engines does come at a slight consequence in that it means there is more drag, and more maintenance to do compared to a twin engine platform. I don't know if the fuel consumption for four F7s is less than for two CFM-56s, but that's something to consider as well.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Interesting, though that could raise costs somewhat compared to a WS-15 or F-119 with a presumably wider fan diameter.
Yes but Japan does not want to repeat the F-2 fiasco in which Japan was planning to develop the F-2 independently acquiring US made jet engine but the US refused Japan's request in which they made a stern proposal in a joint development in return for providing the engines.
This had been a bad experience that turned worse when the US took all data on research of carbon composite and newly developed onboard AESA radar system for free in the name of Joint development.
It's a never again situation which Japan made sure it would not happen again.
 
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