J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by siegecrossbow, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. siegecrossbow
    Offline

    siegecrossbow Brigadier
    Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,154
    Likes Received:
    8,814
    Not on YouTube but available on Chinese streaming website.

    https://b23.tv/av71520714

    Pretty conservative display.
     
    Air Force Brat and Hyperwarp like this.
  2. Xsizor
    Offline

    Xsizor Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2019
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    484
    Wouldn't it be better if we wait for some time before discussing the engines? Do we have enough material (read leaks, rumors, reveals) to engage in productive speculations and conclusions? Also we ought to consider and reconsider the discussion of WS-15 taking place under the J-20 thread. It would be better since we don't have a steady stream of information for WS-15. Much of the discussion will be populated with "would", "should", "ought to" etc.
    I haven't seen even WS-10 being equipped in numbers in the J-20. Of course, there is credible images of WS-10 on J-20.But has it replaced AL-31 completely?
    WS-15 is a big deal for China as well as China's potential adversaries. It is up there along with SSBNs, SSNs and ICBMs. We have to be patient.
     
  3. Inst
    Offline

    Inst Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    631
    I think some effort has to be made to discuss the incredible thrust shift between a J-20A and a J-20B. If we assume the WS-10s on the J-20A are roughly 130kN max thrust, the WS-15s on the J-20B range from a 40 (180kN) to 50% (197kN) increase in thrust.

    This kind of re-engining is incredible. In the F-14D's case, thrust rose by 20% compared to the F-14A. In the F-16's case, thrust rose by about 25%. In the F-16's case, also, the increased thrust was partially absorbed by improved electronics and structural reinforcement for strike roles.
     
    antiterror13 likes this.
  4. by78
    Offline

    by78 Brigadier

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    31,238
    Start a separate thread please.
     
    Xsizor and ZeEa5KPul like this.
  5. Inst
    Offline

    Inst Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    631
    This kind of shift between interim engines and final engines has to factor into aircraft design, i.e, the .67m^2 inlets of the Su-27 and the J-20 (if DSI is treated as a blocker) only make sense when we consider the Al-31F / WS-10. Once you get to WS-15, the inlets are now choking the engines due to insufficient size. Increasing their size either requires a DSI redesign or modifying the entire fuselage to support larger intakes.
     
  6. by78
    Offline

    by78 Brigadier

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    31,238
    More high-resolution images.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    perfume, no_name, bruceb1959 and 10 others like this.
  7. manqiangrexue
    Online

    manqiangrexue Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,466
    Likes Received:
    8,137
    I think the reason you are getting these numbers is because you are selecting the lowest fathomable, not even realistic, numbers for the WS-10X and taking the highest imaginable for the WS-15. Most sources, although none with absolute authority, say that the J-20A uses AL-31FM2, which is a Russian engine with 145kN thrust. If this is replaced by a WS-10 variant, I think it's safe to assume that at the very least, it won't be much worse in wet thrust, but possibly better. So 145kN is more realistic for the J-20A, perhaps higher. Then, the most commonly cited number for WS-15 is 180kN and that is already monstrous; there is absolutely no need to go to 197kN. And this is assuming that the engineers reached their target thrust; if they don't or it's taking too long, it's totally possible to release the engine for use at some 170kN or so (assuming other parameters are acceptable). If the engineers got it up to 180 with acceptable performance factors in other areas, it's ready to go as WS-15A. There is no time to keep tweaking it up further at the expense of holding up J-20B production. So, I'm looking at an increase to 180kN from at least 145kN which is at most a 24% increase. And all these numbers are totally haywire because we don't really know how much thrust WS-10X J-20A has and we really really don't know how much thrust WS-15 J-20B will have. I don't know why we're having this discussion really.
     
  8. Biscuits
    Offline

    Biscuits Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2018
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    909
    WS-15s initial problems sound almost exactly the same as F-35 engine initial problems, except F-35 started being built earlier, and China didn’t stick the fire hazard engines into planes.

    It’s too early to say whether it would be sustainable at 197kN or whether that is some sort of overclocking output that can’t be maintained consistently.

    But given that a large part of the J-20s mission would be to hunt and kill enemy stealth fighters as an interceptor, it will need every tool to outturn enemy planes. The near future and existing 5th gen today all possess high levels of maneuverability. An interceptor in this era must have truly exceptional fighting capability, and that sort of capability can be granted by having twin 190kN+ 3D thrust vectoring powerplants.
     
    Yodello likes this.
  9. azesus
    Offline

    azesus Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    140
    J-20 main role is to bypass escort fighters and being the stealth spoting eye forward penetrating scout for the J-16 carrying extra long range PL-21 hunt force multipliers like oil tanker and early warning command control once those are gone remaining escort fighters will have no eyes no leg range turning on radar will make it much easier target turning on flashlight in absolute dark night in the vast Pacific ocean no where for emergency landing once the fuel is empty war is not knight joust if you're fighting fair then you are not trying, missiles will always have way more kinematic performance than platforms so over chasing fighter engine performance is a fruitless pursuit
     
  10. weig2000
    Offline

    weig2000 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    1,976
    I just realized that you wrote the above long sentence without a single punctuation mark! I was trying to finish reading and understanding it in one breath, but couldn't hold it in the end. LOL.
     
    perfume, yuxiaochen, KIENCHIN and 3 others like this.
Loading...

Share This Page