J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Ugh SCMP... might as well have linked to US.gov

The official info as of September is that WS-15 is not integrated with the J20 software systems yet.

Most likely the ones with WS-15 are undergoing extreme testing right now and will be doing so for at least a few weeks more.

Why would they be sent to perform in an Airshow? There’s maybe 30 J20 overall. Nearly all would be WS-10G variants, not WS-15 ones. More important to get fire control and pilots etc tuned to the new fighters than to put up a show. The J10 is more suitable.
 

by78

General
WS-15 fails reliability tests?! Presenting in Zhuhai?!

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Could you do all of us a favor? Try not to post anything from Minnie Chan again, or anything from SCMP for that matter.

All rumors from credible sources up to this point – Minnie Chan is about as credible on Chinese military matters as Bernie Madoff is on managing money – point to WS-15 not being ready for mass production until early next decade.

Again, FYI, Minnie Chan has long ago been dismissed as a crackpot here at Sinodefenceforum. A lot of what she writes is comedic gold, so you may post her articles as comedy relief if you wish, but if you want to be taken seriously by your fellow members, then it's best that you don't.

Let me remind you, Sinodefence Forum is not a fanboy forum. Thank you.
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
Could you do all of us a solid? Try not to post anything from Minnie Chan again, or anything from SCMP for that matter.

All rumors from credible sources up to this point – Minnie Chan is about as credible on Chinese military matters as Bernie Madoff is on managing money – point to WS-15 not being ready for mass production until early next decade.

Unlike Bernie, Minnie doesn't know what she's talking about half of the time.
 

by78

General
Five More...

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Just look at Minnie Chan's story about Zhuhai having a lower budget because of Trump's trade war? Does it look like it was affected by a lower budget. Since when does the West buy Chinese arms where this airshow would be affected by Trump trade war? I think it was the SCMP the last time that said China's FC-31 wasn't stealthy because the C-17 the US sent to the show back then could see it on its radar parked on the tarmac. Or before that one of their writers said submarines were obsolete.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
If the rumors about no gun is true, it would seem like a major flaw. The J20 has what amounts to 2x 195kN class engines with TVC along with a canard design, so it’s slated to have insane maneuverability. Not having a gun would be a huge waste of dogfighting potential.

The main two ‘sub-optimal’ permanent design features (so ruling out engines as everyone knows the current engines are only interim) that detractors often cite to argue that compromised stealth are the canards and ventricular streaks.

The objections against canards come mainly from American fanboys who love to quote one designer.

But their credibility is massively undercut by facts.

One of the ATF contenders had canards, as does Boeing’s 6th gen early concept design. Funny how all the insistence that canards and stealth cannot possibility combine magically disappeared as soon as an American company proposed using them.

Currently, the J20s canards might, in theory, contribute to RCS spikes as they deflect to control the plane in flight, but with TVC, the canards could be locked into optimal stealth position by the FCS during stealth mode, with minor controls done via TVC instead.

The second grip about the streaks are just as ill funded.

The streaks would reflect radar the same way as the main vertical tails would. What more, they shield the engines from side view, to massively mitigate the RCS penalty from a round nozzle from the side.

Both the canards and streaks are primarily added to maximise agility.

So that brings us right back to the question of the gun.

For me, it is extremely clear that the J20 designers made very deliberate and specific design choices, choices with downsides and costs, to maximise the J20’s agility.

HMS and high off-boresight missiles were hardly new when the J20 was being designed, China itself had such technology operationally fielded.

As such, if the J20 was only designed to be a BVR missile shooter with self defence short range missiles, then there would have been no need to make all those design choices to maximise agility, sometimes at the cost of stealth.

It’s not like we never had high quality pictures of the J20’s back before, so I have no idea what the ‘no gun’ crowd are suddenly seeing now that they could not have seen on earlier pictures.

The only change was on the external panelling, but that could easily be explained as a simply change to improve RCS after tests with early prototypes.

Such surface changes does nothing to render the left shoulder port unsuitable for gun installation.

One needs to remember that the J20 main landing gear has two main sections, with a forward section that is usually closed until the year is retracting/lowering.

The position of those doors means it is entirely possible that they redesigned the internals to allow access to the gun via access panels behind those doors, for routine maintenance and reloading. Thus removing the need to open the panels on the back unless they want to remove the whole gun.
 

by78

General
Unlike Bernie, Minnie doesn't know what she's talking about half of the time.

Only half of the time?
The objections against canards come mainly from American fanboys who love to quote one designer.

Who's this designer? As far as I know, almost all media sources cite Richard Aboulafia from the Teal Group. Although he plays an 'expert' on CNN, in real life Mr. Aboulafia has a degree in history and has experience working in the civil aviation industry as an analyst.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Interview with J-20 test pilot Li Gang, which provided some interesting insights.

“时间刚好是八个‘一’!”李刚说,时间上纯属巧合。原定7日进行的首飞计划,因为成都的天气原因被推迟到11日。

J-20's first flight was supposed to be on January 7th. Due to weather conditions, the flight was postponed till the 11th. The January 11th military holiday tradition is just nonsense cooked up by fans.
He also mentioned that there are 8 "1"s in the time of the first flight (August 1st!).

“杨伟给我们发了很多空白的座舱图,给了好多电门开关的小图片,让我们自己去体验,把相应的开关贴在自己认为合理的位置上。”李刚说,如果大家都贴在一个位置上,说明意见一致;不一致,就开会讨论。

Chief designer Yang Wei allowed the test pilots themselves to design the cockpit layout.

李刚说,因其隐身需求,歼-20在气动外形设计上比一般飞机复杂得多。经过设计团队的不懈努力,终使歼-20具备了非常出色的敏捷性和操控性,与歼-10相差无异。

Li Gang stated that due to J-20's complex aerodynamic design, J-20 has excellent agility and controllability on par with those of J-10.

“歼-20座舱还采用了侧杆操作,这在中国战机历史上也是第一次。”李刚介绍,这一设计理念有三点优势:一是飞行员视野更清晰;二是增强战机敏捷性;三是更有利于战机进行大过载飞行。

Li Gang confirmed that J-20 uses a side control stick --- a first in Chinese aviation history. He outlined the three advantages of this design: better field of view for the pilot, increased agility for the aircraft, and the fact that a side-stick is better for high-g maneuvers.

“一架飞机装备部队是很不容易的,中间飞了好几千架次。”李刚介绍,从2011年首飞歼-20验证机,到2014年首飞原型机,再到今年年初正式列装作战部队,歼-20历时7年走完了从首飞到技术鉴定再到装备作战部队的完整过程。

J-20 underwent several thousand test flights from the first demonstrator in 2011 till the official prototype in 2014.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Who's this designer? As far as I know, almost all media sources cite Richard Aboulafia from the Teal Group. Although he plays an 'expert' on CNN, in real life Mr. Aboulafia has a degree in history and has experience working in the civil aviation industry as an analyst.

It is usually cited as some ‘Northrop designer’ who said that the best place for a canard is one someone else’s plane.

I cannot remember the fellow’s name.
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can't help but to imagine those strong vortex on both sides suck air away from the middle creating low pressure region on J-20's generous smooth upper fuselage. Of course all designs utilizing vortex would have this going for them but it fells like its extra strong for J-20.... for my eye ball wing tunnel at least.
 
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