J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
Anyways, getting back on topic. I think that for the next few years, the only news we will hear about the J20 coming out of official Chinese sources will be good news.
This is hardly surprising or untoward, as the US was/is the same with its F22s and F35s.
That is not to say that the PLAAF is going to take it easy on the J20.
I would expect them to ‘test it to destruction’, but keep lengthening the odds until it looses. But that tipping point is going to be considered top secret information of the highest order, so it’s not going to even be hinted at by anyone in the know.
All these reports of J20s winning despite the odds are probably just the parts of the test that the PLAAF high command thinks could be released without any security risk.
In a way, I think looking out for what is not mentioned in such official releases might be very enlightening.
I have noted that there have been zero mentioning of J20s dominating when opfor was using anti-stealth radars. I have no doubt that one of the first things the PLA would have tested their J20s against would have been anti-stealth radars, so their omission might be quite revealing.
Also, I think the results of stealth+legacy vs pure stealth exercises would be very interesting, especially if you are ready to use the legacy stuff as bait and sacrificial lambs. But again, that’s not the kind of details that the Chinese would allow to get out into the open.
As was always the case, following defence stories is as much about reading between the lines at what is not reported as it is about looking at rumours and official releases.
If there are common sense scenarios that would undoubtedly been tested, the omission of reporting on such could be highly informative in itself.
This is hardly surprising or untoward, as the US was/is the same with its F22s and F35s.
That is not to say that the PLAAF is going to take it easy on the J20.
I would expect them to ‘test it to destruction’, but keep lengthening the odds until it looses. But that tipping point is going to be considered top secret information of the highest order, so it’s not going to even be hinted at by anyone in the know.
All these reports of J20s winning despite the odds are probably just the parts of the test that the PLAAF high command thinks could be released without any security risk.
In a way, I think looking out for what is not mentioned in such official releases might be very enlightening.
I have noted that there have been zero mentioning of J20s dominating when opfor was using anti-stealth radars. I have no doubt that one of the first things the PLA would have tested their J20s against would have been anti-stealth radars, so their omission might be quite revealing.
Also, I think the results of stealth+legacy vs pure stealth exercises would be very interesting, especially if you are ready to use the legacy stuff as bait and sacrificial lambs. But again, that’s not the kind of details that the Chinese would allow to get out into the open.
As was always the case, following defence stories is as much about reading between the lines at what is not reported as it is about looking at rumours and official releases.
If there are common sense scenarios that would undoubtedly been tested, the omission of reporting on such could be highly informative in itself.
MastanKhan
Junior Member
Hi,
Really---. Canards just don't happen to pop out of thin air---there is a substance and technology behind it.
An aircraft manufacturer who has no experience of canards in their aircraft---just suddenly does not put canards on its aircraft--. There is solid science and engineering behind it---. There is function and utility behind it---
And until and unless you don't have the engineering behind it---you won't put canards on your aircraft---.
Canards are just horizontal stabilizers (tail fins) that are on the front instead of the back (like F-22 and F-35).
Clearly if Tail fins on F-22 and F-35 don't add any unneccessary stealth RCS reduction, Canards, which are essentially tail fins but on the front, shouldn't make a big difference either.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
From a purely theoretical standpoint, canards can add to RCS for two main rreason reason.
1) they are on a different plain to the wings. The tails of the F35 and F22 are on the same plain as the main wings, which can shield them from incoming radar from the front.
2) when the canards move to steer the plane, that movement can cause small RCS spikes
Now, the key question is weather those RCS increases are large enough to matter.
For the J20, it has much smaller vertical stabilisers compared to the F22, so if you are like at looking at the sum total of surface area exposed to incoming radar, it’s hard to say that the J20 has a net significantly bigger area.
Point 2 could also be significantly mitigated with advanced FBW and/or TVC, whereby you have a stealth mode, under which the canards are locked in place, with a combination of other control surfaces, differential engine thrust and TVC to steer the plane without them.
You would only activate the canards in WVR combat, at which point stealth is meaningless in any case.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
At high speed, canards wouldn't move that much. If they do move, the aircraft is already exposing more of its body since it would be making a turn of some sort. Might as well complain about the rudders and tailfins but you hear nothing of it.
No, they’re *not* just stabs mounted ahead of the wing. Canards have downwash effects on the main wing that completely change how aerodynamic control laws work compared to tails. Because of these downwash effects, unlike tails, canards have to handle both pitch authority and some control of the lift coefficient over the wing. This, needless to say, makes the plane’s FCS more complicated. Canards, by being independent from the downwash from the wings, are also much better at controlling a plane at stall angles, since they don’t wash out when the wings do. Furthermore, by function of pushing the wings further back on the body of the plane, canard designs shift the center of lift for the plane further back as well, which actually makes for better flying characteristics at transonic and supersonic speeds. These aren’t trivial differences by any means.
Canards are typically locked in place (e.g. flush and aligned with rest of body/wing) during stealth flight for BVR warfare..... when you even need canards activated for dogfights, stealth wouldn't even matter then.
Also, the canards can be angled in such a way that the radar reflects away from the original source (just as the main delta wing is angled to repel radar ways optimally).
If F-22 and F-35 can have a big delta wing and big rudders and big tail fins, how do they deal with it? The argument that "just because they have canards" is a reason for bad stealth is ridiculous. You don't hear F-22 or F-35 having RUDDERS (vertical stabilizers) as a "Bad stealth" contributor do you??
just me ranting, canards contribute no more to bad stealth than F-22 and F-35's gigantic rudders (vertical stabilizers) and tail fins (rear horizontal stabilizers).
Also, the canards can be angled in such a way that the radar reflects away from the original source (just as the main delta wing is angled to repel radar ways optimally).
If F-22 and F-35 can have a big delta wing and big rudders and big tail fins, how do they deal with it? The argument that "just because they have canards" is a reason for bad stealth is ridiculous. You don't hear F-22 or F-35 having RUDDERS (vertical stabilizers) as a "Bad stealth" contributor do you??
just me ranting, canards contribute no more to bad stealth than F-22 and F-35's gigantic rudders (vertical stabilizers) and tail fins (rear horizontal stabilizers).
Well to be fair the exact results of J-20s exercises in terms of the opfor they face etc, is not told to us. I would be surprised if the PLA would reveal the results of counter stealth vs stealth in an obvious manner.
However, Henri K has written a little about some of the credible rumours he's seen about J-20 exercises, whereupon it seemed one exercise may have involved at least some level of anti-stealth tactics where the J-20 still completely dominated.
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