J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Inst]

The multi-role capability is very interesting. There's actually a list of things we need to see on the J-20 if it's going to be any good.

-Pods on the frontal rails. This is a major opportunity, and the conventional "China lacks LOAL" is not sufficient. For instance, the J-20 could have gun pods installed onto frontal rail pods, so they'd be perfectly stealthy when not in use. Alternately, the J-20 could have additional EW pods installed there, so there would be no stealth penalty as with the F-35's NG Jammer. Or, alternately, the J-20 could have a long-range laser dazzler installed to counter IR missiles.

-TVC engines. Well, we've been waiting for this forever, but the WS-15 project seems to be "on schedule" in that it'll be ready in 2020-2022.

-Long-range IR missiles. Stealth fighters, with their strong X-band and C-band radar reduction, can't really be locked on with BVRAAMs. They can, however, be picked up on IR missiles or electro-optically-guided missiles. Current Chinese IR missiles are stunningly short range; the PL-ASR is rumored to be around 25 km in range, about the same as the latest American Sidewinders. What it really needs to beat, though, is the Russian R-73 missile, which has 40 km range on the latest versions, or even the R-27ETs, which have a NEZ of approximately 50 km and a maximum range of 100 km. If the J-20's EOTS can pick up an F-22 at 100 km, it shouldn't be that hard for an IR missile's seeker to do the same and home in.

-Strike missiles that fit into the J-20's bay. A very well-respected member here got caught wrongfooted when we measured the J-20's bay depth at around 500-600 mm, but he still has a point that the J-20 lacks the missiles needed for the strike mission. Things like the YJ-12 are too long to fit into the J-20.

-Very long-range interception missiles that fit into the J-20's bays. The PL-15 might have a good range, but you'd need at least 300 km maximum range to be able to hit an E-2D Hawkeye when it detects you. Even a charitable figure of 550km vs 0 dBsm and a -10 dBsm UHF RCS means you'll get detected at 300 km. Moreover, you should be able to detect the emissions from an E-2D before you're actually detected. The first inkling of your presence to AEW&C should be when your weapons bay opens to launch an interceptor missile.

 

[Inst]

Sorry but made in Japan was already recognized from the 70's.
Sony Trinitron was a top seller in the end of the 70's.
Datsun Z cars, Honda CIVIC was also highly recognized in the 70's.

You need to do some research before making claims.

Benedict remarked that Japanese manufactures were marked by a good-enough mentality in the 1930s. Total quality management didn't catch on in Japan until the 1970s, which was around the time Japan became known for quality goods. Looking at web sources, shifts in perception of Japanese goods occurred in the late 1970s.

China is, in terms of quality, roughly around the level of Japan in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is obvious, and people are making an effort to improve, but quality construction takes time.

 

[taxiya]

You mean this sheet?
View attachment 45777

yes

 

[taxiya]

You mean this sheet?
View attachment 45777

yes and also this (same but different lighting) with detailed micro pattern

 

[taxiya]

yes and also this (same but different lighting) with detailed micro pattern

 

[Blitzo]

The multi-role capability is very interesting. There's actually a list of things we need to see on the J-20 if it's going to be any good.

-Pods on the frontal rails. This is a major opportunity, and the conventional "China lacks LOAL" is not sufficient. For instance, the J-20 could have gun pods installed onto frontal rail pods, so they'd be perfectly stealthy when not in use. Alternately, the J-20 could have additional EW pods installed there, so there would be no stealth penalty as with the F-35's NG Jammer. Or, alternately, the J-20 could have a long-range laser dazzler installed to counter IR missiles.

-TVC engines. Well, we've been waiting for this forever, but the WS-15 project seems to be "on schedule" in that it'll be ready in 2020-2022.

-Long-range IR missiles. Stealth fighters, with their strong X-band and C-band radar reduction, can't really be locked on with BVRAAMs. They can, however, be picked up on IR missiles or electro-optically-guided missiles. Current Chinese IR missiles are stunningly short range; the PL-ASR is rumored to be around 25 km in range, about the same as the latest American Sidewinders. What it really needs to beat, though, is the Russian R-73 missile, which has 40 km range on the latest versions, or even the R-27ETs, which have a NEZ of approximately 50 km and a maximum range of 100 km. If the J-20's EOTS can pick up an F-22 at 100 km, it shouldn't be that hard for an IR missile's seeker to do the same and home in.

-Strike missiles that fit into the J-20's bay. A very well-respected member here got caught wrongfooted when we measured the J-20's bay depth at around 500-600 mm, but he still has a point that the J-20 lacks the missiles needed for the strike mission. Things like the YJ-12 are too long to fit into the J-20.

-Very long-range interception missiles that fit into the J-20's bays. The PL-15 might have a good range, but you'd need at least 300 km maximum range to be able to hit an E-2D Hawkeye when it detects you. Even a charitable figure of 550km vs 0 dBsm and a -10 dBsm UHF RCS means you'll get detected at 300 km. Moreover, you should be able to detect the emissions from an E-2D before you're actually detected. The first inkling of your presence to AEW&C should be when your weapons bay opens to launch an interceptor missile.

Multi-role capability of the future and going into 6th gen or "5.5 gen" may not directly correlate to the kinetic systems on the aircraft (missiles, aerodynamic performance etc), but rather improved sensors, datalinking, EW, vastly enhanced ISR, cyber, and UAV/UCAV control functions.




As for J-20's IRST picking up an F-22 at 100km or E-2D detecting J-20 at 300km... come on...

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Multi-role capability of the future and going into 6th gen or "5.5 gen" may not directly correlate to the kinetic systems on the aircraft (missiles, aerodynamic performance etc), but rather improved sensors, datalinking, EW, vastly enhanced ISR, cyber, and UAV/UCAV control functions.

It may not need to wait for a 5.5 or 6 gen J20 a 5.15 can do. Part of how Raptor and F15 became multirole was as simple as a software patch that took the already onboard sensors and basically taught them to aim at ground targets.
the J20's radar and EOTS-86 electro-optical targeting system are already on board the fighter. without modifying the Airframe the next step would be teaching the fighter to Bomb and guide weapons as well as getting it's weapons hardpoints to "talk" to Air to ground weapons these could be BeiDou guided bombs, Laser guided weapons, guided air to surface missiles.
Gun pods have there uses but for ground attack are less effective. They are used more as a Danger close option.

 

[Tirdent]

I think you and others are over-interpreting too much in this change of colour ... we also know some in grey and others in plain yellow in that area.

I must admit I cannot explain that but during the F-22's phase of production the colour of several parts and their primer changed or was different. I don't think that in most cases the explanation was much more simple than to assume they introduced some sort of new material.

Just my 2 cents.

In the F-22's case, the change from yellow to green primer was due to a new, less toxic formulation IIRC (zinc-chromate is pretty nasty stuff).

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Unpainted surface colour is not a totally reliable proxy for skin material, especially with stealth aircraft, where many layers of surface treatment are involved and the aircraft may be basically flight-worthy (adequately corrosion protected) in many intermediate stages.

 

[Blitzo]

It may not need to wait for a 5.5 or 6 gen J20 a 5.15 can do. Part of how Raptor and F15 became multirole was as simple as a software patch that took the already onboard sensors and basically taught them to aim at ground targets.
the J20's radar and EOTS-86 electro-optical targeting system are already on board the fighter. without modifying the Airframe the next step would be teaching the fighter to Bomb and guide weapons as well as getting it's weapons hardpoints to "talk" to Air to ground weapons these could be BeiDou guided bombs, Laser guided weapons, guided air to surface missiles.
Gun pods have there uses but for ground attack are less effective. They are used more as a Danger close option.

What you described is very much on the low end of what I described.

Improved software blocks to allow for the J-20 to deploy PGMs and to share data with older generations of aircraft should very much be in the aircraft's near term future.

However, more capable sensors, UAV/UCAV control, cyberwarfare, and more capable EW, ISR etc, are probably going to be further away, and that is what I was referring to when I talked about "non-kinetic" upgrades to make future J-20 variants more "multirole".

 

[Inst]

Blitzo, the idea that dogfights matter in an age of stealth is pure nonsense. You forget that the F-22 and F-35 have HOBS missiles, so once you get into a dogfight, maneuverability only reduces, but not eliminates, the probability of getting killed by HOBS quickly. Moreover, the J-20 is a heavy fighter, so it can't sustain attritional combat like the F-35 can.

So, you want to knock out the enemy fighter before they can open fire with HOBS. For the US, the secret weapon is the E-2D. It has a radar aperture approximately 8 times larger than on the J-20. If Chinese state-of-the-art AESA can detect 0 dBsm at 400 km, then the larger PESA, assuming the magnetron's greater power can compensate for efficiency losses, can ping 0 dBsm at more than 1000 km. But the J-20 is a -30 to -40 dBsm fighter, which should reduce this to 150 to 100 km.

Yet there's a reason the E-2D is counterstealth, it operates in the UHF frequencies, which usually increase the radar signature of stealth fighters by 10-20 dBsm. So, the J-20's dBsm is now between 0 and -30 dBsm vs the E-2D, not withstanding how small parts like ventral fins and canards have a greater chance of half-wave resonance. Choosing -20 dBsm, you'd get a detection range of 347.85 km. When the E-2D detects the J-20, it can't track or fire, because tracking range is far lower and it's unarmed, so it cues off the EODAS on F-35s, which are much better at tracking than detecting. With a restricted search area due to the E-2D cueing it, it should be able to detect the J-20 at around 100 km, meaning that the F-22 should be able to be around 250 km in front of the E-2D, and it should be able to loose AMRAAMs at the J-20s, using a data-link to target it.

The J-20, then, needs to be able to fire on the E-2D, then scoot home, before the E-2D and F-35 can complete its kill chain. A very-long range BVRAAM needs at least 300 km of range to open fire before the E-2D detects it. Once the E-2D has been knocked out, the F-35s are now blind, and Chinese AEW&C aircraft should enable J-20s to complete their own kill chains vs F-35s.