J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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PiSigma

"the engineer"
The difference is in the organisation of production, the typical example for serial production is a production line where you have X steps and each plane would start at step 1, next go to step 2, ... until it reaches the last step. After the first plane goes from step 1 to step 2, the next plane would start at step 1
and this continues as long as you run the production. Once the first plane is finished in step X you would get a steady stream of new planes until production stops. In order for this to work you need a steady stream of components. This is the way to produce big numbers since the times of the Ford T.

In batch production you would decide to produce X planes at a time, get the necessary components for X planes and then put together X planes. After the X planes are completed you would then start another batch of X planes or perhaps build a batch of different planes (if your production equipment allows this --- if I'm not mistaken this is what happens when SAC changes between JH-7A and H-6 production).
This way is more suited to building smaller numbers and should allow more changes between batches.

Typically you would produce prototypes and development planes in small batches and once development and testing is complete you might set up "serial production" if you want to produce a lot.

I'm not sure why chinese warplanes seem to be built as batches, it might be that the number of planes ordered for each type is relatively small so setting up a production line is not worth of the effort or that there have been problems in the past with setting up the kind of logistics necessary for a smooth production line.

Schenkus - the batch process in airplane building in China is actually not much different than serial production in US.

Where you described 1st plane go from step 1 to 2, then plane two go to step 1, assembly line style of construction is also done in China. That is why you don't see 40 planes delivered to the PLAAF at the same time, but one or two planes at a time.

What "batch" means here is really an order of 24 to 40 planes at any given time. Once that order is complete, there might be another order of the same plane or an modified plane or a completely different plane.

They still need the assembly line style construction method to capture manufacturing efficiencies and skilled trades person's strengths in each portion of construction.

The advantage of this "batch" process is the ease of incorporating more modifications per batch. Essentially you build 24-40 fighters (or less for bigger bombers/transport) and can make small modifications (see J10B to J10C) and the retooling is fairly cheap in the factory, and the re-training is easy.

Only when a design is considered final and a large number required (think F35 where there are many customers with same design and almost no differences) then serial production begins (where there are no retooling or retraining is required).
 

delft

Brigadier
I would guess it is due to production capacity and maturity of the models in question. Both the Chinese aviation industry and PLAAF had experience in mass producing military aircrafts before. But those were all 2-gen and 3-gen models, much less sophiscated than the 4-gen J-10, J-11, etc.

I have the feeling that PLAAF also don't want or need to hoard large number of J-10, in particular the earlier variants like J-10A. They learned a lesson dearly from J-6 which was made in thousands even when it was already obsolete.
There is a vast difference in organization for series production and batch production. Batch production is repeatedly producing a limited number, series production is producing for an unlimited number. The second demands a much larger investment and if the production isn't interrupted too often by changes in the product is the cheaper way for large numbers. You use a larger number of people each with a smaller task which gives them more experience in that task. We are here of course comparing US and Chinese production.
F-22 production was organized for a total production of 750 aircraft and it is unlikely that any of the cost advantage was realized. In F-35 total production planned is some 2500 with several hundred to be built for a number of satellite states. The Netherlands even contributed $ 1b to the production in the vain hope of creaming off profits from Dutch companies involved in producing parts. There is even a production line to be built in Italy. However the first 800 aircraft are so varied by a variety of reasons that the advantage of series production is not realized. Eventually some advantage is likely to be made despite the fact that the same line in US will build all three versions.
China produces much lower numbers because its defence budget is much lower so it makes sense to build all fighter aircraft except of course the prototypes in batches. A beautiful example is the production of J-11D, J15 and J-16 in the same plant. Only J-10 is build in sufficient numbers to make series production a possibility.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Think you misread Henri K's article. He said this pic of the 5th LRIP J-20 is probably old and in fact probably was taken in May 2016. Presumably more have been produced by now.


After some reconsidering I think, he's probably correct !

If You look closely at the four 176. Brigade birds, then they could indeed simply be the two plain grey ones now as 78271 & 78272 and the two in splinter camouflage now as 78273 & 78274. So reports about that yellow one from 13. January being actually the 5th LRIP bird and 13th J-20 altogether can be correct.

Deino
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
After some reconsidering I think, he's probably correct !

If You look closely at the four 176. Brigade birds, then they could indeed simply be the two plain grey ones now as 78271 & 78272 and the two in splinter camouflage now as 78273 & 78274. So reports about that yellow one from 13. January being actually the 5th LRIP bird and 13th J-20 altogether can be correct.

Deino

I absolutely concur here, and if this is indeed the case, it does partially explain China obtaining 24 SU-35s, much as the USN may indeed buy more F-18s as a stop-gap measure?? To be honest, I had a much greater grasp of where China was, and where it was going under President Deng,,, its more difficult these days?? and in part much of that difficulty likely points back to Barack Obama's fanfare over the Pacific Pivot??
 

davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
re # 4212, ......here comes a set of quartet.......

193_231631_430455.jpg


193_231638_353760.jpg


193_231628_465637.jpg


193_231629_780961.jpg

so far four...more to come!....
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
There ya go Bub, those numbers ought to make you happy, I'm really glad to see these birds being numbered in a very standard common sense manner. I don't have school tomorrow, but I have to do a funeral for one of my former church ladies husband, so not a real day off??? she's very sad

I've been seeing lots of Bald Eagles on my school bus route, and we never used to see them, I stopped the bus and showed my students a young bird Friday, that reminded me a lot of the Shenyang Eagle on the J-31, which brings to mind another query??

Does the J-20 have a Logo or Illustration? like the one on the J-31 Prototypes tale???

As well, shouldn't the next batch begin making an appearance shortly after the Chinese New Year???
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
re # 4212, ......here comes a set of quartet.......

193_231631_430455.jpg


193_231638_353760.jpg


193_231628_465637.jpg


193_231629_780961.jpg

so far four...more to come!....

The lighting on the first photo illustrates how pretty these airplanes are, they are definitely attractive with this new camo, and the numbers, they just look so sharp!
A beautiful photo, would make a nice avatar if it weren't for this great picture of my old DAD, God Bless Him,,,,he would get a kick out of this forum, he really would, and he'd get a kick out all these neat airplanes.
 

KIENCHIN

Junior Member
Registered Member
The lighting on the first photo illustrates how pretty these airplanes are, they are definitely attractive with this new camo, and the numbers, they just look so sharp!
A beautiful photo, would make a nice avatar if it weren't for this great picture of my old DAD, God Bless Him,,,,he would get a kick out of this forum, he really would, and he'd get a kick out all these neat airplanes.
Hey Brat, I had always thought it was a photo of your dad. What plane was he in, cheers.
 
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