J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[pakje]

In A2A, the J-10B incorporates all of the upgrades seen on the Rafale and Eurofighter, and even to further extent, however in the A2G role the J-10B will be at a disadvantage.

Why can't the j-10 compete with the rafale/eurofighter on a2g?

 

[Dizasta1]

America has done nothing of the kind.

In fact, America has been deliberately vague in defining what it's military commitments are to Taiwan as it fears that clearly defining that relationship would lead to war.

If it said it will guarantee Taiwan's safety no matter what, the next pro-independence candidate to get into office will promptly declare independence on the back of that guarantee, and China would invade.

If it said it will not come to Taiwan's aid, then China will attack.

Or so the thinking in Washington goes at least.

In reality, what America's military obligations are to Taiwan is to be defined as best serves America's interest. As things stand, America's best interests are served by remaining vague. But if that status quo is broken, either by a declaration of independence from Taiwan, or a PLA attack, then the American president at the time will decide what America is obliged to do based on the projected outcome and cost of getting directly involved in a shooting war with China.

If it looks likely that America will loose, or only win at unacceptably high cost, then the American president will in all likelihood declare that America never had any obligation to come to Taiwan's aid if attacked, issue all the usual condemnations and urge an end of hostilities and secretly hope the war ends quickly so they present China with 'reset' button (hopefully with the correct translation this time) and get back to business as usual before too long.

If this is true, then my friend, I see no problem in China unifying Taiwan back into the Union of the People's Republic of China. I hope that what you say about America's stance on Taiwan, is true, because from where I stand, things don't seem the same.

I am a big supporter of China, being Pakistani, I have learnt since a school kid, the stories of how China came to Pakistan's aid, in it's darkest hour. And as such, I take great pride in seeing how China has risen to the heights of prosperity. For Pakistan, a stronger China, is very important and it's exactly the same for China (a stronger Pakistan).

Hence, I view things a bit differently.

You see, I believe that America feels directly threatened by China's rise to being a Global Power. And the reason why I believe it as such, is because America has military bases in Japan, South Korea, Australia, Kyrgyzstan, Diego Garcia and is to build a Super Base (military) in Guam, worth $8 billion. These military bases provide vital proximity to launch strikes in the continent of Asia.

For this reason, I believe that China should not underestimate the intent of America, diplomatically or militarily. And as such, it is important for China to not only build up it's military, but also have military bases in Pakistan (Gwadar), Sri Lanka (Hambantota), Burma (Sittwe), Maldives (Marao) and Yemen (Socotra).

Having the military might is one thing, to be able to strike at your adversary is another. In this light, I believe it is essential for China to have the ability to strike at the enemy, regardless of the distance between itself and the enemy. And this is one area where America holds the advantage. Situated in the North American continent, the United States does not have any enemy on it's border. And for any adversary, who wants to strike America, would have cross the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans, to do so.

China on the other hand, is at a disadvantage in this regard, which is why it is important for it to build up military presence, at least in it's own and neighboring regions like Central Asia, South Asia and Middle East. At the same time, it should make an effort, at dislodging the United State's military presence in countries like Kyrgyzstan and Afghanistan. And similarly, Pakistan must expel all U.S military presence within its territory as well.

 

[saptarishi]

Why can't the j-10 compete with the rafale/eurofighter on a2g?

i have no doubt that j-10b will be better than eurofighter typhoon in a2g role. in air to air role it can better both ef and rafale if it gets good tvc, capable aesa and better EW SYSTEMS LIKE SPECTRA. i am sure with the advances china has aquired through j-20 ,j-10b can be the best fourth gen fighter.but main thing is that plaaf will be more focused on j-20 and the new shenyang f-60 and fc-1b stealth striker. plaaf is surely looking ahead.like other air forces like usa,iaf,ruaf,its main goal is introducing more fifth gen fighters.it will be great to see plaaf in 2020s.what a formidable and powerful air force

 

[Dizasta1]

In A2A, the J-10B incorporates all of the upgrades seen on the Rafale and Eurofighter, and even to further extent, however in the A2G role the J-10B will be at a disadvantage.

J-10Bs don't lack in A2G capability because it is an inferior aircraft, rather it needs better, more advance A2G weapons developed for it, that it may deploy them against targets. What J-10Bs needs stand-off weapons which are smaller in size, but equal or greater in range and accuracy. These Stand-Off weapons can be in the shape of missiles and gps-guided bombs.

The fact that J-10Bs are touted to have AESA radars, means that they are able to employ A2G weapons with consummate ease. More refined, tweaked and matured A2G weapons technology is all that the J-10Bs need. As they are already in the category of the Eurofighter and Rafale.

FYI, Eurofighters of the RAF, were actually using Tornadoes to point targets to employ it's Paveway bombs in the Libyan conflict. This is documented in Air Force's Monthly and apparently there was a whole lot of hoopla by the members of the British Parliament. The British ministers were crossed at the fact that French Rafales were able to drop bombs on targets with their new Damocles and RECO-NG Pods .... while the RAF Eurofighter pilots had to rely on their Tornado colleagues to drop bombs on targets.

So in that respect, I doubt that the J-10Bs are in any way lacking in A2G, compared to Eurofighters.

 

[vesicles]

i have no doubt that j-10b will be better than eurofighter typhoon in a2g role. in air to air role it can better both ef and rafale if it gets good tvc, capable aesa and better EW SYSTEMS LIKE SPECTRA. i am sure with the advances china has aquired through j-20 ,j-10b can be the best fourth gen fighter.but main thing is that plaaf will be more focused on j-20 and the new shenyang f-60 and fc-1b stealth striker. plaaf is surely looking ahead.like other air forces like usa,iaf,ruaf,its main goal is introducing more fifth gen fighters.it will be great to see plaaf in 2020s.what a formidable and powerful air force

Pardon me for asking, but where did the naming F-60 come from? It seems to be the NATO name for J-19, but my question is where is it from? Even J-19 is still in question...

 

[plawolf]

in air to air role it can better both ef and rafale if it gets good tvc, capable aesa and better EW SYSTEMS LIKE SPECTRA.

Do you know what EW suit the J10B will actually have to suggest that it needs a better one?

Also, Russia has been offering TVC AL31FNs for the J10 for years now, and so far, it does not appear that China is at all interested.

Considering that J10s are dominating Su27s in DAC training in BVR and WVR, and since the PLAAF seems to value greatly energy management and conservation in air combat, I doubt whether their pilots would want to use the extreme nose pointing ability offered by TVC. As such I doubt whether TVC will add all that much to the J10's agility.

With fourth gen delta canard designs, the airframe's agility have already surpassed the human body's ability to withstand G-forces, so it is the human factor that is holding back the agility of fighters, not their aerodynamics. Which is why none of the other Eurocanards have TVC on the cards as a future upgrade option or goal.

Don't get me wrong, TVC will still be beneficial to have, but for the delta canard, the benefits are probably not big enough to justify the costs of adding TVC.

 

[Deino]

i have no doubt that j-10b will be better than eurofighter typhoon in a2g role. in air to air role it can better both ef and rafale if it gets good tvc, capable aesa and better EW SYSTEMS LIKE SPECTRA. i am sure with the advances china has aquired through j-20 ,j-10b can be the best fourth gen fighter.but main thing is that plaaf will be more focused on j-20 and the new shenyang f-60 and fc-1b stealth striker. plaaf is surely looking ahead.like other air forces like usa,iaf,ruaf,its main goal is introducing more fifth gen fighters.it will be great to see plaaf in 2020s.what a formidable and powerful air force

Brrrr my young friend, not too fast with the young horses (mavericks) like we say in German. .P

I agree with You that the J-10 is a quantum leap in avionics and overall system-architechture in comparison to the J-7/-8 and also Su-27/J-11 but if it could outperform both Eurocanards in terms of being a "weapon-system" is highly questionable.

You mention a TVC ... completly overrrated IMO and just in comparison to both Eurocanards it would be more important to be a complete & functioning weapon-system than to hae such gimmics.

Besides that - as also mentioned: There is no Shenyang f-60 (not even a J-60) ... You surely think of that nice RC-model made by some students and in regard to a "stealthy" fc-1b - also not if ever under development - not by SAC it is much too light to be capable for anything.

Sorry my friend, but the PLAAF in 2020 will not be very much different to the PLAAF today if You expect some new toys to be operation in large numbers.

J-10Bs don't lack in A2G capability because it is an inferior aircraft, rather it needs better, more advance A2G weapons developed for it, that it may deploy them against targets. What J-10Bs needs stand-off weapons which are smaller in size, but equal or greater in range and accuracy. These Stand-Off weapons can be in the shape of missiles and gps-guided bombs.

The fact that J-10Bs are touted to have AESA radars, means that they are able to employ A2G weapons with consummate ease. More refined, tweaked and matured A2G weapons technology is all that the J-10Bs need. As they are already in the category of the Eurofighter and Rafale.

FYI, Eurofighters of the RAF, were actually using Tornadoes to point targets to employ it's Paveway bombs in the Libyan conflict. This is documented in Air Force's Monthly and apparently there was a whole lot of hoopla by the members of the British Parliament. The British ministers were crossed at the fact that French Rafales were able to drop bombs on targets with their new Damocles and RECO-NG Pods .... while the RAF Eurofighter pilots had to rely on their Tornado colleagues to drop bombs on targets.

So in that respect, I doubt that the J-10Bs are in any way lacking in A2G, compared to Eurofighters.

Funny ... You are correct in pointing towards the lack of self-designator-capability for the EF (esp. in comparison to the Rafale) but the TYphoon is jusdt getting a decent A2G capability since it was always its second aim and additionally it was (is) always delayed due to (German) politics.

On the other side has the J-10 ever been seen with such a capability ?? (regardless of models + mock-ups) ???

As such to compare the EF "today" and its lack in capabilities with a projected capability of a J-10B with a lots of "need to, should have, will be" is a bit way off.

Deino

 

[Dizasta1]

Well considering the comments made by U.S Air Force pilot about how the Su-30Mki's lumbered when their TVC kicked in at Red Flag, it doesn't seem that TVC is all that beneficial. Unless the technology is properly developed, by not losing power-weight ratio and fighter pilots are given thorough and aggressive training on it. The TVC is not something to be taken lightly and should be explored only if the aircraft's maneuverability remains intact, with respect to maintaining altitude and speed.

 

[pakje]

I hope the plaf is developing better a2g weapons, it's obviously the j-10 can be used as an effective a2g platform

Well considering the comments made by U.S Air Force pilot about how the Su-30Mki's lumbered when their TVC kicked in at Red Flag, it doesn't seem that TVC is all that beneficial. Unless the technology is properly developed, by not losing power-weight ratio and fighter pilots are given thorough and aggressive training on it. The TVC is not something to be taken lightly and should be explored only if the aircraft's maneuverability remains intact, with respect to maintaining altitude and speed.

What I heard is that indian FBW simply is not programmed well enough to use it as good.

 

[Dizasta1]

Funny ... You are correct in pointing towards the lack of self-designator-capability for the EF (esp. in comparison to the Rafale) but the TYphoon is jusdt getting a decent A2G capability since it was always its second aim and additionally it was (is) always delayed due to (German) politics.

On the other side has the J-10 ever been seen with such a capability ?? (regardless of models + mock-ups) ???

As such to compare the EF "today" and its lack in capabilities with a projected capability of a J-10B with a lots of "need to, should have, will be" is a bit way off.

Deino

Well, the "need to, should have, will be" is just as applicable to the Eurofighter, as it is to J-10Bs. From what I know, the Eurofighter is yet to have an operational AESA radar and also, it is yet to have A2G capability.

Isn't that kinda where the J-10B stands right now, awaiting its AESA radar, EW suite and A2G weapons and pod??

I still believe that the J-10B holds a lot of potential for the PLAAF and if China knows better, it would know to deploy this fighter in heavy numbers, once it has AESA, EWS, A2G incorporated in it.