ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I would be extremely careful about using reports by the likes of Aministy International or mainstream western media as a credible, independent source for civilian casualties from Russian air strikes

We hear little to no stories about civilian casualties from daily reports, but suddenly hundreds are killed?

If you look at the sources, at least Animisty is honest enough to state that they are relying on 'activists' on the ground rather than being able to confirm anything directly.

I mean, these 'activists' of course have no reason to exaggerate or outright lie about what is going on do they? :rolleyes:

The fine men and women working at Aministy means well, but they do not believe in violence or conflict. Even though they are protected and kept safe by those who do.

I admire their idealism, but question their objectivity and judgement.
 
...

We hear little to no stories about civilian casualties from daily reports, but suddenly hundreds are killed?

...

I guess this depends on who "we" is, and what daily reports "you" follow, for example some
Jura
during last ten weeks or so has noticed, for example in the right banner at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

many videos reportedly showing civilian victims of Russian airstrikes, but didn't post for the reason which is obvious after "one" actually sees some of those videos (yes, dead children). But I suppose those videos I still available at that site, plus I noticed the AI report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

contains links to youtube ... I admit I can watch a video showing a Squad of Fighters blown up on a TOW impact, but not civilian casualties.
 
... the AI report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

contains links to youtube ...

now I searched for the official Russian (denial, of course); it's appeared just about two hours ago in:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

there's a TV report inside, the major-general (I think he also periodically reports about the number of sorties etc.) says the document are cliches and fakes

EDIT
finally located the ТАСС link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

4156920.jpg
 
Last edited:

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I also have a heavy scepticism with regards to organisations like Amnesty and HRW. Both operate from plush suites in the Empire State Building and I did once take the time to read their financial reports and see who their large financial supporters were.
You need to be a true forensic accountant to be able to trace things all the way back, but I found monies coming in from trusts and foundations set up in the name of senior establishment figures.

Further I am looking at the context of events on the ground and it seems that The Aleppo region is no longer the crucible of the campaign. Instead the Russian led offensive is now switched to the border regions of Iblid and Latakia.
No real surprise then that much of the criticism of Russia centres on Air Strikes against the City of Iblid, which is the only Provisional Capital to fall to the rebels and the only other candidate city after Aleppo to form a breakaway Capital for any potential future rebel protectorate. No wonder; with Aleppo largely neutralised as potential Capital, that Iblid is next in line for the Russian led Coalitions attention.

Even the BBC admits that Iblid is held by a coalition of largely Islamist militant groups and this itself makes some of the definitions and discussions by the media interesting in the extreme.
Alexander Mercourisrecently wrote a very informative article for Russian Insider about the 3 recently passed UN Resolutions 2249, 2253 and 2254. He demonstrates that the provisions of the resolutions (esp 2253 with is a chapter VII resolution) is not simply limited to ISIS but to other Islamist terror groups as well. This fact has not been widely broadcast, but is the basis for ongoing wrangling about which groups are terrorist and which are not.

A number that are in Iblid are already listed as terrorist in the resolution and as such are legitimate targets for Russian Airstrikes.
It also seems that we are getting a novel interpretation of the word civilian as well. It is also true that the BBC 4 Radio today programme, also reported in the first days of the Air Strikes that an Syrian Observatory Group (Syrian Observatory for Human Rights?) did maintain that most of the targets were military by nature. It has not repeated to my ears since that morning.
What the BBC reportage could not hide was that many of the targets were Civil Infrastructure rather than indiscriminate civilian and this is a huge difference being obscured in media coverage. Part of one report showed an injured lawyer in lawyers gown being led out of a bombed building. Assuming that he was not simply posing at home, then he will have been at work and that gowns are only worn in Court. Likewise given that the City has been overrun by Islamist Militants and Terrorists, any Court in their jurisdiction is going to be a Sharia Court and exercising a form of law illegal in Syria and therefore a prime candidate for attack.

Overall there is a hard fight fight being played out in the Latakia mountains as the Russian Air Power clears the path for Government Coalition ground forces to seal the Turkish border and advance upon Iblid itself. The news from Fars and other sources is that a succession of hilltops and small towns are falling to the Government Coalition advance and that rebel forces (many of which are now being supported by Turkey and other Western countries in violation of UN Resolutions) are on the ropes and in actual serious trouble. Putins payback to Turkey no doubt.
The Amnesty story comes across as little more than a mix of rebuttal in advance and deflection.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I also have a heavy scepticism with regards to organisations like Amnesty and HRW. Both operate from plush suites in the Empire State Building and I did once take the time to read their financial reports and see who their large financial supporters were.
You need to be a true forensic accountant to be able to trace things all the way back, but I found monies coming in from trusts and foundations set up in the name of senior establishment figures.

Further I am looking at the context of events on the ground and it seems that The Aleppo region is no longer the crucible of the campaign. Instead the Russian led offensive is now switched to the border regions of Iblid and Latakia.
No real surprise then that much of the criticism of Russia centres on Air Strikes against the City of Iblid, which is the only Provisional Capital to fall to the rebels and the only other candidate city after Aleppo to form a breakaway Capital for any potential future rebel protectorate. No wonder; with Aleppo largely neutralised as potential Capital, that Iblid is next in line for the Russian led Coalitions attention.

Even the BBC admits that Iblid is held by a coalition of largely Islamist militant groups and this itself makes some of the definitions and discussions by the media interesting in the extreme.
Alexander Mercourisrecently wrote a very informative article for Russian Insider about the 3 recently passed UN Resolutions 2249, 2253 and 2254. He demonstrates that the provisions of the resolutions (esp 2253 with is a chapter VII resolution) is not simply limited to ISIS but to other Islamist terror groups as well. This fact has not been widely broadcast, but is the basis for ongoing wrangling about which groups are terrorist and which are not.

A number that are in Iblid are already listed as terrorist in the resolution and as such are legitimate targets for Russian Airstrikes.
It also seems that we are getting a novel interpretation of the word civilian as well. It is also true that the BBC 4 Radio today programme, also reported in the first days of the Air Strikes that an Syrian Observatory Group (Syrian Observatory for Human Rights?) did maintain that most of the targets were military by nature. It has not repeated to my ears since that morning.
What the BBC reportage could not hide was that many of the targets were Civil Infrastructure rather than indiscriminate civilian and this is a huge difference being obscured in media coverage. Part of one report showed an injured lawyer in lawyers gown being led out of a bombed building. Assuming that he was not simply posing at home, then he will have been at work and that gowns are only worn in Court. Likewise given that the City has been overrun by Islamist Militants and Terrorists, any Court in their jurisdiction is going to be a Sharia Court and exercising a form of law illegal in Syria and therefore a prime candidate for attack.

Overall there is a hard fight fight being played out in the Latakia mountains as the Russian Air Power clears the path for Government Coalition ground forces to seal the Turkish border and advance upon Iblid itself. The news from Fars and other sources is that a succession of hilltops and small towns are falling to the Government Coalition advance and that rebel forces (many of which are now being supported by Turkey and other Western countries in violation of UN Resolutions) are on the ropes and in actual serious trouble. Putins payback to Turkey no doubt.
The Amnesty story comes across as little more than a mix of rebuttal in advance and deflection.
well said.
rebels or terrorists have no uniforms, they are "civilian casualties" in the eyes of their media friends when their weapons are blown away from their dead bodies, they are "innocent" if they don't hold their weapons when in the toilet.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I guess this depends on who "we" is, and what daily reports "you" follow, for example some
Jura
during last ten weeks or so has noticed, for example in the right banner at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

many videos reportedly showing civilian victims of Russian airstrikes, but didn't post for the reason which is obvious after "one" actually sees some of those videos (yes, dead children). But I suppose those videos I still available at that site, plus I noticed the AI report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

contains links to youtube ... I admit I can watch a video showing a Squad of Fighters blown up on a TOW impact, but not civilian casualties.

Call me cynic, but I somehow doubt gathering dead civilian bodies and planting them near the aftermath of air strikes, or even photographing and filming the aftermath of ISIS bombing and blaming it on the 'evil commie Red Russians' is beyond the likes of ISIS.

With the way most rebels are just firing heavy rockets in the general direction of the enemy, I would be amazed if they managed better accuracy than the Russian Air Force, even with free fall bombs.

Basically I see the 'activists' at best blaming everything that falls out of the sky as Russian air strikes, and at worst that many of these activities being active ISIS or sundry rebel members, who are deliberately faking or outright mounting false flag attacks to blame on the Russians in the hopes that it will create enough western pressure to make the Russia air strikes stop.
 

janjak desalin

Junior Member
I also have a heavy scepticism with regards to organisations like Amnesty and HRW. [...] The Amnesty story comes across as little more than a mix of rebuttal in advance and deflection.
One of the main reasons I still visit this site is that there are some here for whom critical thinking/analysis is a fundamental element of their discourse. Any critical-thinker understands that all of these "news sources" are interest-bound, whether explicitly or implicitly, whether by preference, or by necessity. It is up to the critical-thinker to consider this when evaluating both the 'factuality' and contextualization of the information presented.

Conversely, those pundit-parrots that come here seeking to use media reports to advance some notions of cultural or national moral superiority, media reports that, as has been established, all critical-thinkers understand are interest-bound, should be aware that critical-thinkers also recognize that true justice needs no justification; it is self-evident. So, your many words and arguments reveal exactly the opposite of that which you hope to project. In other words, they reveal precisely both the nature and objectives of your dissembling, whether you are consciously aware of it, or it is simply a cultural habitus.

 
Last edited:

janjak desalin

Junior Member
[...]Further I am looking at the context of events on the ground and it seems that The Aleppo region is no longer the crucible of the campaign. [...]
Any thoughts on the effectiveness of the Aleppo campaign relative to the overall national strategy? Essential, or ancillary, successful or stagnant?

I must admit that, aside from the Kuweires objective, it's been quite perplexing, to me. The push to Kuweires resulted, temporarily, in a unilateral (northern-flank) salient into ISIL-held territory. Ultimately, this strategy was successful as the salient, though vulnerable, allowed sufficient force to push not only to, but also through the objective.

Conversely, southern Aleppo is not so clear. What was the strategic objective? Was it farmland? If so, kudos! If not, what then? Were it simply to have cut-off the M5/Hama - Aleppo connection, would not another focused salient push into Idlib along a either a western, WSW, WNW, NNW, or SSW axis have achieved this? Granted this would have created a bilateral salient that might have been much harder to defend than the unilateral salient of the Kuweires push, but it would have achieved the objective. So, said simply, what was the primary strategic objective, and what were the secondary and tertiary objectives of the Southwestern Aleppo campaign?
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Any thoughts on the effectiveness of the Aleppo campaign relative to the overall national strategy? Essential, or ancillary, successful or stagnant?

I must admit that, aside from the Kuweires objective, it's been quite perplexing, to me. The push to Kuweires resulted, temporarily, in a unilateral (northern-flank) salient into ISIL-held territory. Ultimately, this strategy was successful as the salient, though vulnerable, allowed sufficient force to push not only to, but also through the objective.

Conversely, southern Aleppo is not so clear. What was the strategic objective? Was it farmland? If so, kudos! If not, what then? Were it simply to have cut-off the M5/Hama - Aleppo connection, would not another focused salient push into Idlib along a either a western, WSW, WNW, NNW, or SSW axis have achieved this? Granted this would have created a bilateral salient that might have been much harder to defend than the unilateral salient of the Kuweires push, but it would have achieved the objective. So, said simply, what was the primary strategic objective, and what were the secondary and tertiary objectives of the Southwestern Aleppo campaign?

Its a very good question and not an easy one to answer.
I suspect very much that the key factor in all strategic decision making and tactical ability, will be the limited number of ground troops available and the relatively small number of Russian aircraft spearheading the Air Campaign. In short, they only have the numbers; both on the ground and in the Air, to be able to overwhelm the enemy along a very limited front and that this front is relocated, maybe based on opportunity or simply on a basis of advance and consolidate.
If nothing else, it will make best use of a greater degree of mobility and central command that the rebels simply do not have.

Currently the Latakia border campaign is clearly the top priority. I suspect this always was and while will try and paint this as Putin being forced to make a strategic error and reassigning his priorities, I just do not buy into it. The border campaign was not started by the Turkish shoot down of the SU-24, it had already started and the shoot down was the Turkish reaction to it. Whether Putin has increased the intensity of the prosecution is another question, but even here, if the answer is yes, then I suspect that this was a desired outcome.

Kuweires I see very much as a work in progress. The base is surely being fully rebuilt and being brought back into operational status as both an Airbase and as a Regional HQ. This will take time and may need completion before going further.
As for Southern Aleppo, I think it has achieved good results; maybe targeting specific groups and it appears being used to weaken the units actually inside the City of Aleppo itself.
This comes back to the two core objectives that I think Putin has for this stage.
1) Cut the supply lines from Turkey
2) Remove any potential civic centre capable of offering the role of Capital to a foreign backed protectorate.

I would also say that simply looking at territorial gain is misleading. Its not as if the rebels are just a series of check points on roads and in villages, each held by a squad or two and that after you defeat one, you just move on to the next. When the Syrian Army coalition attacks, the rebels have been clearly bringing fighter from miles away and throwing them into the fire fight.
If the South Aleppo campaign has relocated hundreds of rebel fighters from other areas, inflicted heavy casualties on them and failed to maintain key rebel supply lines open, I think it will be deemed a success.
 
Top