Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
D


Chinese people are individuals too. We don't all need to be humble, keeping our head down, etc..
If some want to take pride in their motherland's success, then let them. If everyone just keeps being humble and acting the same, it'll be too boring.
China has improved so much since the 1990s, whereas certain other countries that started off at the same starting line (as China) are still stagnant.
People partying and celebrating their achievements is normal.

there is difference between confidence vs over-confidence. be proud of your own country accomplishments is fine, but start bashing US decline or weakness etc, just cocky. what deng xiao peng said "Keep a cool head and maintain a low profile. but aim to do something big"

I really think the whole "hide and bide" thing was 1% Chinese cleverness and 99% Western arrogance. Even if China shouted from the rooftops back then that it was out to be #1, everyone would have just laughed. No matter what China did, it would have been ignored. I don't get the critique that China should keep its head down today so the US overlooks it. Sorry, China's just too big and nothing it does, no matter how small, will be ignored.
 

A.Man

Major
Most of my Chinese colleagues (high-tech industry) have settled and are raising their families here. As far as I understood, they want to enjoy a high quality of life. If China would offer them that, I imagine they would go back. After all, that's where most of their relatives are still living.

Unlike in China, they have the freedom here to purchase and own property in a city of their choosing, instead of being screwed by the Hukou. Also they and their kids get to enjoy top-tier social welfare.
You have no idea what the good life is in China.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
there is no issue with high five and some boosting, but over doing it, is not good. China still has long road ahead. what are you talking about linear etc. plenty chinese-american invest in china, but their home still in US, they constantly travel to china make some $$$ then come back, none of them decide permanently go back to china unless they get huge $$$, but thats rare. also are you living in China or in a western country? if its the latter why.

I post some anecdotal evidence, you post some anecdotal evidence. Difference is that mine is supported by graphs of the actual percentage of Chinese students returning home regardless of the reason.

Linear means a person who does 1 unit of work. Because he's not an innovator, having 1 of him means 1 unit of work done and 10 of him means 10 units of work done. Force multipliers are people who innovate and improve the system. Having just 1 force multiplier might make 10 people churn out 100 units of work instead of 10. If you are a linear worker, China doesn't need you; China has more people willing to work harder for cheaper. If you are a force-multiplier, China will make sure its society is welcoming to you.

Well, you just put out another anecdote about nobody going back without huge payout and first of all, usually, they will offer you a huge amount of money only if you are truly useful. Secondly, I've seen many Chinese people have no intent on staying in the US regardless of pay. We can keep throwing anecdotes at each other till the cows come home but I think the chart localizer posted is the big data. 8/10 Chinese students coming into America end up going back. The other 2... haven't gone back yet. And yes, I know there are plenty of people out there without dreams, loyalty or love for their heritage; they just want to live plain simple inconsequential little lives. There are even Chinese who are traitorous to their own nation so don't take my words to mean that every Chinese person is rising up for their mother country. But once again, all anecdotes aside, 8/10 have already gone home.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
there is difference between confidence vs over-confidence. be proud of your own country accomplishments is fine, but start bashing US decline or weakness etc, just cocky. what deng xiao peng said "Keep a cool head and maintain a low profile. but aim to do something big"

There is nothing wrong with being cocky, arrogant, humble, nonchalant, etc... as long as you keep moving forward. The whole reason one shouldn't be cocky is because this attitude typically leads to decline in productivity and inclination to rest on one's laurels. I think we can all see that China's technological development is only accelerating, all attitudes on this forum aside. No need to worry that this little chat will lead to China getting drunk and laying down.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
i do agree alot chinese has more choice now, my point is US still attract talent immigrants, and these immigrants help US tech alot. and most these immigrant become american, and their kids is pretty much integrate into american culture.

Heh heh I don't know how well that works. I see de facto segregation of Asians (and other minorities) everywhere and even those who were born in the US proudly tell people, "I'm Chinese," or "I'm Korean," etc... The current political situation in America is very helpful for awakening people to the fact that they are not American no matter where they were born or raised.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Heh heh I don't know how well that works. I see de facto segregation of Asians (and other minorities) everywhere and even those who were born in the US proudly tell people, "I'm Chinese," or "I'm Korean," etc... The current political situation in America is very helpful for awakening people to the fact that they are not American no matter where they were born or raised.

The kids integrate into American culture then wonder why they have to work 2x as hard as the white guy or 4x as hard as the black/hispanic and get the opposite of protection from racial discrimination. You're always a guest even if your family has been here for generations. I have no objections to this because I've accepted it as human nature (tribalism). I can only hope that future Chinese don't have to go to some foreign land while feeling inferior and powerless just to beg for food.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Simple. Security trumps economics any day.
Whilst I agreed that security trumpes economics.
This is true for any government in the world. That is the ability to defend ones land and increase prosperity of its people.
But. My question is this.
What security issues theses countries have with China? China is not likely to invade them any time soon!
If security is basically the ability of China to spy via the use of their telecommunication network. Please. Give me strength I think US and western nations are the best in the spyng game.
This "security" is just an excuse to justify in stopping hauwai in establishing 5G in western countries.
Let's not forget that Trump also justify his tariff on steel and aluminium from his allies, Europe on security ground!
The security justification was that if Europe continues to sell steel and aluminium to the US. The US will loose the skills in making steel and aluminium in times of war, leading to the inability of making war machines in times of war! Talk about tenuous link!
Still whatever the US says must be true! (Wink wink)
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Trump always like to go against the mainstream. While other US officials are trying hard to block out Huawei, Trump slap hard in their faces.
CXvEGN4.png
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Trump always like to go against the mainstream. While other US officials are trying hard to block out Huawei, Trump slap hard in their faces.
CXvEGN4.png

Thank you for bringing things back on subject.

I was actually just going to write about this.

I do not think this is Trump being contrarian. Sometimes I think the world underestimate him and think him a pure buffoon, but he is not. At least not to the extent his enemies seem to think.

It is worth noting the almost sea change in attitudes on key western allies overnight over this precise issue.

Italy has rebuffed American pressure; Britain has cleared Huawei; even New Zealand is back-pedaling claiming there never was a ban on Huawei.

Germany was already leaning heavily towards allowing Huawei anyways, add the momentum of these recent decision, it seems like an almost certainty that Germany will follow suite. Where British and Germany leads together, the EU tend to follow.

It looks like Trump got briefings on which way the wind was turning, and decided to cut his losses and make a costless tweet that he can try and leavage some goodwill out of at least from China during the upcoming trade negotiations.

If and when the EU does make its decision not to ban Huawei, you can bet much of the MSM, especially the American ones, will be attributing most of the credit/blame (depending on their masters’ positions on Trump) to Trump’s tweet in shifting the balance.

While such transparent moves will cut no ice with the Chinese negotiators, it looks like Trump is laying the groundworks for a much bigger play - offering Huawei a slice of the American 5G and broader telecoms market.

While this might sound like a fanciful idea in the current climate, one has to consider the magnitude of the impact an EU decision to effectively adopt Huawei 5G would have.

With China and the EU on one standard, America would be the minority standard. In the battle for domination of new tech standards, economies of size matters significantly. As does first mover advantage; raw capabilities and costs.

Huawei’s 5G tech dominates the competition in all but the final field.

For America to cling to their already failed strategy of trying to freeze Huawei out would be to compound their error, as adapting a significantly inferior technical standard at home; at a later date, and one that is not compatible with the dominant standard of the rest of the world would be disastrous for American firms in the competition to develop next gen commercial tech and services that will take full advantage of 5G.

It will be like trying to develop today’s digital economy while being limited to dail-up modems.

I expect Trump to dangle the carrot of allowing Huawei to participate in American 5G, and also end the unofficial blacklisting of Huawei products by all American carriers (all the lawfare against Huawei will also stop of course); and offset with the threat of continued legal troubles and potentially a components sales ban like the one they hit ZTE with if China doesn’t take the deal.

While Huawei is no ZTE and should not be crippled by an American components ban, such a ban would nevertheless cost them significantly.

The true make or break question is just what Trump expects in return for these sweeteners and an end to the broader trade war that he started.

But needless to say, the costs and damage to American pawns like Canada and Australia, who stupidly lead the charge against Huawei and China will not even be considered by Trump, especially if he needs to make costly concessions to China for those sins to be forgiven.

America might not care much about what becomes of them, but China will. So I expect Canada and Australia to continue to suffer the fallout of their stupidity long after America and China have made nice and went back to business as usual.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Most of my Chinese colleagues (high-tech industry) have settled and are raising their families here. As far as I understood, they want to enjoy a high quality of life. If China would offer them that, I imagine they would go back. After all, that's where most of their relatives are still living.

Unlike in China, they have the freedom here to purchase and own property in a city of their choosing, instead of being screwed by the Hukou. Also they and their kids get to enjoy top-tier social welfare.

Yes and the other part of that story is China's Silicon Valley, the only peer challenger to the US's, is on part filled with Chinese that hit the glass ceiling in the US and went back to China and started their own companies in Shenzhen to which now is only challenger in the world to Silicon Valley in the US. So China went from no Silicon Valley of their own to the only one capable of challenging Silicon Valley. Another example of how others say China is X years behind the US so therefore will always be X years behind but China caught up anyway. China got the better deal.
 
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