Is the large Missile Destroyer/Cruiser becoming obsolete?

Engineer

Major
The capabilities are not really comparable. Orbital mechanics determine the course for 99% of the satellites in space. Those orbits are fixed (very few are manueverable based on a threat), and therefore placing an anti-sat KV in its path is fairly straight forward if you have the technology to get it there.
Orbits are not fixed. They only appear fixed because the attitude control systems on each satellite keep the orbital parameters more or less constant. Even so, the uneveness in Earth's geoid, positions of celestial bodies such as the sun and the moon, and even tides can shift the orbits. And once you get to low earth orbit, there is also atmospheric drag to wreck havoc on theories. Calling interception in space "straight forward" shows you have absolutely no clue as to how fast things can diverge in space.

A vessel on the high seas is manueverable and will have moved significantrly from where it was initially spotted before the warhead arrives...and will also employ a wealth of ECM to further decrease the BMs chance of finding and hitting it.
It takes some 10 minutes for an object to reach low earth orbit. During that time, a satellite at the same altitude would have moved 7 km/s * 60s/min * 10min, which is 4200 km. Show me a ship that can move 4200 km in 10 minutes.

As for ECM, it is nothing in comparasion to radiation in space.

This will vary on the type of missile and type of launch platform...but particularly for the very long range capabilities being discussed...land launched against vessels very far out to sea, this will hold. You have to have the capability to find the vessel 1st far out to sea, which requires significant assets and capability, then you have to have the capability to communicate that location (target info) back to your launch platform, then you have to reaquire the target once the weapon gets close. Once re-aquired, you have to be able to manuever a hypervelocity incoming warhead onto the target.
The challenge involved, and the amount of assets and capabilities required to intercept a target in space is no less than those required to intercept a target at sea. As an example, due to different requirements, a facility which can accurately track an object in space will not likely to be at the same place as the launch location for a ASAT weapon, so the problems of target data forwarding still have to be dealt with. Another example, a ship can be tracked to a considerable distance away using radars that utilize long wavelength. The cross section of a satellite however, places a restriction on the minimium frequency which can be used. This frequency restriction will be much higher than that for tracking a ship. So for the same power, a radar intended to track objects in space will not be able to see as far as one that is used to track objects at sea. The small size of a satellite also means that the amount of radar reflection is much smaller. So in order to capture a return signal, you must use a "pencil beam" and aim the antenna directly at the satellite, which is a challenge by itself. As for "hypervelocity", a ship at sea would appear to be "stationary" to the warhead, and the relative speed between the two would only be ~7km/s. Two objects in space however, would be closing at 14 km/s.

None of those are as straight forward as the vast majority of your sat kills...
I have a short memory span, but I seem to recall someone just described interception in space as "straight forward".

...which will generally involve putting the kill vehicle at a known location at a known time. If you have the capability to reliably get the kill vehicle into space, then making it arrive at that known place at the known time is more straight forward than hitting a manuevering target in a potentially heavy ECM environment which you have to reaquire once the warhead gets there.
I have shown you that an object in space moves significantly faster than a ship at sea. I have also shown that tracking and intercepting a target in space is no less challenging than doing the same for a target far from the shores. The technologies used in smacking a KV to a satellite can be adapted to smack the warhead from a ballistic missile on to the deck of a ship. I hope these are enough to make you see that ASBM capabilities already exists.
 
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pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
everything that nerd said was correct but he forgot the most important factor, that is, whether the Chinese enginners have solved the techinical challenges in order to make an ASBM workable. An ASBM would be potent, if, and only if, the chinese engineers solved challenges to shrink the seeker/guidance heads, shrink engine size, increase rapid manouvering capabilities, and the most important one of them all, to seek and target enemy vessels after re-entering the atmosphere within a short amount of time. The Chinese are quite big experts in the field of ballistic missiles, but yet they were to solve the problems in reducing the sizes of the inner components, currently they are just simply too large and overly complexed comparing to NATO standard (many even to the Russians)...... If those challenges are not solved by the Chinese, then their missiles would be very very large and very very hard to travel unnoticed without being detected by the Americans. Also the sizes of the missiles would reduce the carrying abilities of its warships, since the numbers of missiles make a great difference in its overall attacking abilities (since massive numbers can sometimes overcome quality).
As said before, the short amount of time the missile has to spare just after re-entering the atmosphere is very very short. The Russian (Soviets) had worked on this topic for quite few decades, especially after they brought the capability of the Sunburns and Clubs to their absolute limit. Even the Red empire was short on overcoming this challenge, not to mention the relatively behind Chinese.
 

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Speaking on the topic of whether modern destroyers and cruisers are becoming obselete, to a great extent, todays large cruisers are becoming more and more obselete.
The Best Reason: The Earth's curvature makes it impossible for the large radars to track enemy battlegroups to the maximum range of their attack missiles. It can only work if the fleet has a large carrier to send early warning aircrafts into the air.
This method might not be as deadly as the saturated attacks of the old Soviet super navy, such as sending more than 100 missiles in less than a minute. But it will work like having a longer lance than your opponent, which you can stab him before he can stab you, even if his lance is sharper, but it would be all in vain if he cant even reach you.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
ut yet they were to solve the problems in reducing the sizes of the inner components, currently they are just simply too large and overly complexed comparing to NATO standard (many even to the Russians)...... If those challenges are not solved by the Chinese, then their missiles would be very very large and very very hard to travel unnoticed without being detected by the Americans. Also the sizes of the missiles would reduce the carrying abilities of its warships, since the numbers of missiles make a great difference in its overall attacking abilities (since massive numbers can sometimes overcome quality).
As said before, the short amount of time the missile has to spare just after re-entering the atmosphere is very very short. The Russian (Soviets) had worked on this topic for quite few decades, especially after they brought the capability of the Sunburns and Clubs to their absolute limit. Even the Red empire was short on overcoming this challenge, not to mention the relatively behind Chinese.

Actually this is far from being true. China is actually leading in the microsatellite-nanosatellite race. In Shenzhen 7, they launched off a small 40kg satellite off the space craft and set as a companion to the space craft. This is actually a world's first and it is the action that defense analysts took heavy notice.

Furthermore, the KV used for the ASAT weighed only 40 to 50kg, another microsatellite.

This is actually an indication that they're ahead in component miniaturization when it comes to missiles and rockets.
 

Kongo

Junior Member
No, the Soviets must be leading the world. Sputnik-1 only weighed 80kg, and that was in 1957. Imagine what they could do right now. This is the best indication that they're ahead in component miniaturization when it comes to missiles and rockets.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Wasn't Sputnik only able to send out a signal? The size of Sputnik had more to do with getting it into space not how advanced was Russian minaturization technology.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I have a short memory span, but I seem to recall someone just described interception in space as "straight forward".
That is precisely the point. Because an orbitiing satellite is much more preditable than a ship at sea, it is, in that sense, much more straight forward.


I have shown you that an object in space moves significantly faster than a ship at sea. I have also shown that tracking and intercepting a target in space is no less challenging than doing the same for a target far from the shores. The technologies used in smacking a KV to a satellite can be adapted to smack the warhead from a ballistic missile on to the deck of a ship. I hope these are enough to make you see that ASBM capabilities already exists.
You have said these things...but that does not mean you have proven or "shown" it. Sorry.

A satellite travels in a fixed orbit (99%) of the time in the sense that it is very predicatable...even taking into account those forces and issues that may effect its path. The entire point is that those forces and issues are known to all and can be accounted for and are in fact a part of orbital mechanics themselves.

Not so with a ship at sea.

Yes of course the sat will move, it is, after all, orbiting. But that orbit (including the natural forces which act upon it) is known...the movement of a ship at sea is not as predictable in the least.

That is the difference. If a vessel has any indication that it is under attack, or operating in an environment where it might be, it will move wholly unpredictably and employ numerous active and passive measures to mask its presence and location and be much harder to reaquire once the warhead gets to where it is going.

99% of satellites are not equipeed to do so. A very small number of very expensive and intricate military satellites do have the ability to manuever...and that becomes a different discussion because then the RV has to re-aquire it and manuever itself. BUt most military satellites and commercial ones cannot do this and that is my discussion.

It is not my intention to say that the process and ability to hit even those types of satellites is "easy". This whole discussion is taking place because of an original statement by you comparing the two and my assertion that they are really not comparable.

Neither is easy. In space it takes huge amounts of investment, knowledge base, and the resulting technology to be able to acquire the target and then get the proper KV in place to kill it. The US has taken a path where several different types of kills are being tested (and successfully I might add). But the predominant one is kinetic and involves placing the KV in the orbit of the target and letting it run into it.

Again, the ability to do all of that is not easy...but once you have made the investment and developed the technologies, then the actual doing of it (though very mathmatical) against non-manuevering orbital satellites, IMHO is straight forward in the sense that the orbit is known and very predictable, whereas a vessel at sea will not be.

As to the ECM envvironment. Again...sorry, but your assertion that the radiation in space is much more difficult than a warfare intensive ECM environment is again simply not so. The radiation in space again is a known quantity. It is there for all to deal with.

A warfare ECM environment is designed specificallyto precisely defeat what you may be sending against it. It will therefore be much more specifically adapted to and targeted at the types of systems you may employ and it will be employed locally, with intense power, by large platforms directed at your relatively small warhead.

This is a much different and more difficult environment than the general radiation found in space whose quantities and existance are already known and much more predicatable.
 

Engineer

Major
That is precisely the point. Because an orbitiing satellite is much more preditable than a ship at sea, it is, in that sense, much more straight forward.
A satellite having an orbit with "fixed" orbital parameters doesn't mean it will go through the same 10m x 10m box every single orbit. If it can pass through the same box most of the time, then it can be called "known location at known time" to allow your kind of "straight forward" interception to happen. The effects I have mentioned in my preivous post, combined with the high speed of the satellite, will ensure that a satellite will not pass through the same point in its next orbit. And the high speed of a satellite will also mean that errors in prediction will cause the results to diverage from reality very, very quickly.

You have said these things...but that does not mean you have proven or "shown" it. Sorry.
This is nothing but a poor argument on your part. By the same logic, you haven't prove or shown a ship to be much more unpredictable than a orbiting satellite.

A satellite travels in a fixed orbit (99%) of the time in the sense that it is very predicatable...even taking into account those forces and issues that may effect its path. The entire point is that those forces and issues are known to all and can be accounted for and are in fact a part of orbital mechanics themselves.

Not so with a ship at sea.

Yes of course the sat will move, it is, after all, orbiting. But that orbit (including the natural forces which act upon it) is known...the movement of a ship at sea is not as predictable in the least.
True that these forces are known to all. What you haven't mention is that they are more qualitative rather than quantative, and you can only model them to a certain degree. No model can account for everything, and anything outside of the model is an unknown thus unpredictable.

To the observer, even the satellite itself is an unpredictability. The method employed by a satellite for attitude control is also an unknown to an observer. The mass of the satellite is also an unknown, although you can only estimate its mass from the trajectory up to a certain degree. The error in mass estimation will introduce errors into the orbital mechanics calculations, and results from the model would diverage from reality.

Inputing a range of values to cover the errors and the model will output a probability function, which is similar to the probability function you will get if you were to use, let say Monte Carlos, to estimate the positions of a ship after an initial observation.

That is the difference. If a vessel has any indication that it is under attack, or operating in an environment where it might be, it will move wholly unpredictably and employ numerous active and passive measures to mask its presence and location and be much harder to reaquire once the warhead gets to where it is going.
If you put a plane perpendicular to the path of a satellite, and note the location where the satellite hits the plane, you will notice that all the hits will be around the theoretical intercetion point. Drawing a circle around these hits, if the KV can strike any point within this circle, then the KV can intercept the satellite.

Regardless of how the ship moves, it won't be able to move out of a circle around its initial location. If an incoming warhead can hit any point within the circle, then the warhead can certainly hit the ship. This is similar to the above case for a KV.

The difference between the two is that in the latter case, you can miss the point of interception by 10m and you could still hit the ship. In the former case, if you miss the satellite by 10m, then it is a miss.

99% of satellites are not equipeed to do so. A very small number of very expensive and intricate military satellites do have the ability to manuever...and that becomes a different discussion because then the RV has to re-aquire it and manuever itself. BUt most military satellites and commercial ones cannot do this and that is my discussion.
A satellite capable of "maneuvering" means that its orbit could potentially be more unpredictable than satellites that can't "maneuver". But it says absolutely nothing about the predictability of the latter.

It is not my intention to say that the process and ability to hit even those types of satellites is "easy". This whole discussion is taking place because of an original statement by you comparing the two and my assertion that they are really not comparable.
And it is my assertion that they are comparable.

As to the ECM envvironment. Again...sorry, but your assertion that the radiation in space is much more difficult than a warfare intensive ECM environment is again simply not so. The radiation in space again is a known quantity. It is there for all to deal with.

A warfare ECM environment is designed specificallyto precisely defeat what you may be sending against it. It will therefore be much more specifically adapted to and targeted at the types of systems you may employ and it will be employed locally, with intense power, by large platforms directed at your relatively small warhead.
ECM is there for all to deal with, and it would be naive for any weapon designer to not take that effect into account.

Focusing on objects only within our own solar system, there is a sun larger than any ECM platform out there, directing intense energy across the entire EM spectrum onto a very small target. Tell me about ECM when there is man-made platform that can direct 1360 W/m^2 of energy onto a target 150 million kilometers away.

This is a much different and more difficult environment than the general radiation found in space whose quantities and existance are already known and much more predicatable.
Saying man-made EM radiation is more difficult to dealt with than those from space is the most ridiculous point I have ever heard. By all means find me a form of ECM that can output gamma radiation, aside from a nuclear warhead.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
By the same logic, you haven't prove or shown a ship to be much more unpredictable than a orbiting satellite.
Precisely. We disagree.


Regardless of how the ship moves, it won't be able to move out of a circle around its initial location. If an incoming warhead can hit any point within the circle, then the warhead can certainly hit the ship.
Only if the warhead can: 1) Re-aquire the target in the environment it finds itself in, 2) Manuever to hit the changed location of the target, and 3) Avoid both ECM and direct defenses of the vessel it is targeting. The US is developing BMD for its vessels, and they are testing out successfully...with more to come.

satellite capable of "maneuvering" means that its orbit could potentially be more unpredictable than satellites that can't "maneuver".
Agreed.

And it is my assertion that they are comparable.
Understood, and we disagree.

Saying man-made EM radiation is more difficult to dealt with than those from space is the most ridiculous point I have ever heard.
And again we disagree. Numerous nations deal with the radiation experienced in space. It is a relative known quantity and is there, in its known quantities for all to deal with..and they can and do deal with it on relatively small platforms if unmanned, and have the room to deal with it on manned space craft...which only a few countries are capable of.

Again, this does not mean or impy that it is easy.

But, when a small warhead or aircraft for that matter, enters the battlespace of a modern battlegroup, the ECM environment for the specific function of attacking that battlegroup is more extreme and more intense than the background radiation. There are very large emitters, with ample power directed squarely at the incoming warheads and aircraft, designed and meant specifically to disrupt their ability to acquire, target, and guide.

You may think that rediculous...but it is none the less so.

And we clearly disagree on it...and I am fine with that...and sincerely hope that neither side has to "prove" itself against each other in the future.

But the systems are being designed and tested with just these contingencies in mind and being somewhat familiar with military systems and their dfesign here in the states...I can tell you that the envoironment is and will be extremely harsh and focused on the incoming missile or aircraft...amd more so, and more specifcally so, than those same acquistion, targeting and guidance systems would experience due to background radiation in earth orbital space.

Having said all of that...it is clear we are not going to agree and have exhausted the discussion. I am happy for others to make their own conclusions.
 
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