Is the large Missile Destroyer/Cruiser becoming obsolete?

Titanium

New Member
The "War nerd" failed to realise that "Ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack" is only the first half of a sentence, the second half of that sentence is omitted by the Naval Institute, which is "therefore, congress should give more funding to the development of shipborne missile defence."

That is infact, agreeing to the what is been said, "Ships as of now are vulnerable to ASM."


Chinese Navy rightly or just by pure coincidence, does not have big ships compared to US.

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Nuclear aircraft carriers (CVN)
U.S. = 11 China = 0
*

VSTOL/helicopter carriers (LHA/LHD)
U.S. = 11 China = 0
*

Guided missile cruisers (CG)
U.S. = 22 China = 0
*

Destroyers (DDG/DD)
U.S. = 60 China = 27
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Frigates (FF/FFG)
U.S. = 30 China = 48
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Ballistic missile submarines (nuclear)(SSBN)
U.S. = 14 China = 3
*

Attack/cruiser missile submarines (nuclear)
(SSN/SSGN)
U.S. = 57 China = 6
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Attack submarine (non-nuclear) (SS/SSK)
U.S. = 0 China = 55
 

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Dear Sirs:

The PLAN's continued focus on FAC's belies the fact that up to now, China's maritime strategy is basically one of SHORE and COAST defense.

Small vessels with little or no endurance, with limited ability to operate in heavy seas far away from shore and supply, and far away from shore-based air cover at that, merely serve to confirm this.

Only now is the PLAN even attempting long-range operations, the anti-piracy escort missions of the Gulf of Aden come to mind.

And thus only now is the PLAN learning to operate her larger, blue-water naval assets, the new DDG's, FFG,'s, SSK's, SSN's, etc.

Still her naval strategy remains defensive and limited (suiting her limited priorities and resources), the so-called operations up to the 1st chain of islands.

Even as her fledgling navy learns the ropes, it has found that modern naval open-ocean operations require sophisticated vessels and systems.

Immediately the first thing that comes to mind is the provision of sufficient fuel and supplies for the fleet, which meant the creation of underway refueling, replenishment and resupply vessels.

Next comes air-cover for the fleet, which of course implies carriers. Then there is anti-submarine warfare, anti-mine warfare, and of course the need for hospital care.

After assembling all of this, the need to physically take or secure marine areas and islands, means using marines, with landing vessels etc.

As you can see, nothing demonstrates power projection like a maritime task force.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Every requirement you have meantioned, the PLAN has addressed to a greater or lesser degree, with maybe the sole exception being fleet naval fixed wing air support, but it appears the PLAN are taking steps to address that shortcoming as well. But the lack of a carrier does not disqualify a navy from being blue water.

the PLAN is still predominately a defensive force, but it has rapidly built up a very sizeable and apparently capable blue water fleet that can rival most western navies.

It is still puny compared to the USN, but it is far from the 'fledgling' coastal defense force you seem to think it is.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I have been thinking some of the same things for a long time. Very few of the systems that protect large surface combatants (pretty much every naval SAM and CIWS system out there) have not been tested in actual combat or if they have it was only once or twice. We simply do not know what would REALLY happen in an actual large exchange of missles between two modern fleets. What if it's all built on a lie so to speak? What if these large expensive surface ships really are just sitting ducks? We can feel pretty safe in assuming that they aren't totally, but still, the possibility is there, and it has to be in the back of your mind.

I think in the future we will see many of the world's navies start move away from large combatants, for the reasons listed above. For a smaller nation that needs a primarily defensive force, FACs in large numbers are an excellent asset. Combined with SSKs and shore launched mobile AShM launchers and other assets, FACs can be a major part of an asymmetrical fleet that can defend sea and land territory against conventional fleets that are much stronger at least on paper. I have been hoping that Taiwan would take such a course for some time now.

However FACs and other such asymmetical assets still are not capable of true power projection. They cannot fight far from home, they cannot support much a campaign on land and they cannot have the sort of global presence a nation like China or the US needs.

Also, some of the threats against large surface combatants are in my opinion exaggerated, particularly ballistic missles. I would like to see a ballistic missle that is capable of hitting a relatively small moving target at sea. I seriously doubt that any nation has the capability to do that reliably. I've never seen one publically acknowledged and in frontline service. Possibly damaging ships with submuntions released from a BM, but not a direct hit.

Also, I believe that laser and DEW technology will in coming years create a more viable solution to the problem of missle interception than SAMs and cannons. That just might ensure that large surface combatants will be around to stay for some time.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I tend to think we maybe trending towards bigger missile "destroyers"---AEGIS destroyers should be considered "cruisers" now. The reason for this is simply the bigger ship can pack more powerful radars, more powerful missiles and more missiles. You have to consider the cost of one ship with 64 missiles vs. two ships with 32 missiles each, and on a cost per deployment ratio on missiles, the one ship would cost cheaper.

Keeping a large fleet of smaller vessels end up having its own cost, compared to a smaller fleet with larger vessels.

The Somali pirate affair is a wake up call for the PLAN to stop playing around with toys.

Its time to think global not local defense.
 

Engineer

Major
Destroyers (DDG/DD)
U.S. = 60 China = 27
Aside from the two 052C's, two 052B's, two 051C's, four Sovremenny's and one 051B that can be referred to as destroyers, the rest of those ships should really be called Frigates. I doubt they could even match 054A in terms of capabilities.

Also, some of the threats against large surface combatants are in my opinion exaggerated, particularly ballistic missles. I would like to see a ballistic missle that is capable of hitting a relatively small moving target at sea. I seriously doubt that any nation has the capability to do that reliably. I've never seen one publically acknowledged and in frontline service. Possibly damaging ships with submuntions released from a BM, but not a direct hit.
Well, there are ballistic missiles that can score a direct hit on a satellite, and a satellite is much much smaller than a ship. So the capability is already there.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well, there are ballistic missiles that can score a direct hit on a satellite, and a satellite is much much smaller than a ship. So the capability is already there.
The capabilities are not really comparable. Orbital mechanics determine the course for 99% of the satellites in space. Those orbits are fixed (very few are manueverable based on a threat), and therefore placing an anti-sat KV in its path is fairly straight forward if you have the technology to get it there.

A vessel on the high seas is manueverable and will have moved significantrly from where it was initially spotted before the warhead arrives...and will also employ a wealth of ECM to further decrease the BMs chance of finding and hitting it.

This will vary on the type of missile and type of launch platform...but particularly for the very long range capabilities being discussed...land launched against vessels very far out to sea, this will hold. You have to have the capability to find the vessel 1st far out to sea, which requires significant assets and capability, then you have to have the capability to communicate that location (target info) back to your launch platform, then you have to reaquire the target once the weapon gets close. Once re-aquired, you have to be able to manuever a hypervelocity incoming warhead onto the target.

None of those are as straight forward as the vast majority of your sat kills which will generally involve putting the kill vehicle at a known location at a known time. If you have the capability to reliably get the kill vehicle into space, then making it arrive at that known place at the known time is more straight forward than hitting a manuevering target in a potentially heavy ECM environment which you have to reaquire once the warhead gets there.

Just my opinion.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Aside from the two 052C's, two 052B's, two 051C's, four Sovremenny's and one 051B that can be referred to as destroyers, the rest of those ships should really be called Frigates. I doubt they could even match 054A in terms of capabilities.

that's true. Actually, in terms of just capabilities, I personally think 054A is superior to even 052B, 051B and the Sovs.

It's really not fair to compare USN to other navies, because it has a wealth of riches when it comes to modern ships.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The capabilities are not really comparable. Orbital mechanics determine the course for 99% of the satellites in space. Those orbits are fixed (very few are manueverable based on a threat), and therefore placing an anti-sat KV in its path is fairly straight forward if you have the technology to get it there.

A vessel on the high seas is manueverable and will have moved significantrly from where it was initially spotted before the warhead arrives...and will also employ a wealth of ECM to further decrease the BMs chance of finding and hitting it.

This will vary on the type of missile and type of launch platform...but particularly for the very long range capabilities being discussed...land launched against vessels very far out to sea, this will hold. You have to have the capability to find the vessel 1st far out to sea, which requires significant assets and capability, then you have to have the capability to communicate that location (target info) back to your launch platform, then you have to reaquire the target once the weapon gets close. Once re-aquired, you have to be able to manuever a hypervelocity incoming warhead onto the target.

None of those are as straight forward as the vast majority of your sat kills which will generally involve putting the kill vehicle at a known location at a known time. If you have the capability to reliably get the kill vehicle into space, then making it arrive at that known place at the known time is more straight forward than hitting a manuevering target in a potentially heavy ECM environment which you have to reaquire once the warhead gets there.

Just my opinion.

hey jeff, i put two articles up on ASBM, I think you might find them interesting
the original
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and follow-up
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I don't really have too much thoughts on this, except that I think destroyers are far from being obsolete. They are still very important. In fact, they are becoming better than ever at intercepting missiles.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
hey jeff, i put two articles up on ASBM, I think you might find them interesting
the original
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and follow-up
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I don't really have too much thoughts on this, except that I think destroyers are far from being obsolete. They are still very important. In fact, they are becoming better than ever at intercepting missiles.
Thanks...I will read both of them.

...and I agree with you. DDGs are proliferating, and the newer, more advanced ones are getting better and better.

The BMD capabilities are growing, particularly with AEGIS vessels and I believe we are not apt to see that slack off anytime soon.

The best naval planners and strategists in the world...in virtually all nations and fleets, are coming to the same conclusions. And they are very, very up to speed on the relative dangers/threats and strengths/capabilities.


BTW, check out the new pic I found of the Indian Vikram on the Carrier Thread. The Russians have floated her off with a new paint job and the hull work complete. Like the Varyag, it seems she is headed for final outfitting.
 
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