indian ocean conflict

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ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Fairthought said:
However, an Indo-Pakistani naval conflict in 2012 may draw in China. Any Sino-Indian naval conflict in the Indian Ocean will definitely draw in Pakistan.
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India vs China + Pak will be a very interesting topic !!! :nana:

Fairthought said:
Arjun, I have a question about your statements:

As I learned, the Mirage 2000's that India obtained in small number from Qatar is not dedicated to the Naval arm, but remains under strategic air command center. When did it become dedicated to the Naval arm?
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India obtained abt 50 Mirages from France :) !! Currently it is negotiating for 10 mirages which are with Quatar .
For Indian Mirage specs go here:
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Fairthought said:
Also, do not forget the 20 or so Pakistani Mirage V's equipped with Exocet missiles. Do you beleive any ship in the Indian navy is immune to the Exocet? There is no Aegis system, short of the newest British Type 45, capable of assuring protection from the Exocet. Even the US navy accepts British Type 45 escorts from time to time to assure better protection in hot spots. This will remain until the US develops their next generation of AEGIS systems.
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Paki Excocets have range of 40kms !! So they need to be launched within 35kms , its pretty within the range of Harriers they can detect Mirages before they are within firing range . Moreover Indian carrier group operates advanced
AEW radars on its Kamov(KA 31) they can detect arial targets (aircraft or missile) at a range of 150 kms .
Indian ships carry Israeli Barak and Russian Shitil air defence missiles .
So Excocet is no threat !!!

More over Harriers are getting upgraded with Elta radars and Derby BVR missile. Indian ships will be having Indian made trishul and akash SAMS which will provide more protection .


Fairthought said:
I expect Some Chinese submarines in the Arabian Sea in 2012. This is of grave concern to the lone Indian carrier in the region. In the end, it will be India's land based airforce which will suppress the Mirage V's and their dreaded Exocets. The Harriers won't do the job.
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By 2012 India will have three carriers and Naval Mig29 , LCAs and also upgraded Harriers operating from them !! :)

And Carriers do't go alone they are flanked by frigates ,destroyers and subs !!
 
I

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Fairthought said:
There needs to be some aspect in which this involves China, a pure Indo-Pakistani debate will not interest most readers of this forum.

However, an Indo-Pakistani naval conflict in 2012 may draw in China. Any Sino-Indian naval conflict in the Indian Ocean will definitely draw in Pakistan.

Arjun, I have a question about your statements:

As I learned, the Mirage 2000's that India obtained in small number from Qatar is not dedicated to the Naval arm, but remains under strategic air command center. When did it become dedicated to the Naval arm?

Also, do not forget the 20 or so Pakistani Mirage V's equipped with Exocet missiles. Do you beleive any ship in the Indian navy is immune to the Exocet? There is no Aegis system, short of the newest British Type 45, capable of assuring protection from the Exocet. Even the US navy accepts British Type 45 escorts from time to time to assure better protection in hot spots. This will remain until the US develops their next generation of AEGIS systems.

I expect Some Chinese submarines in the Arabian Sea in 2012. This is of grave concern to the lone Indian carrier in the region. In the end, it will be India's land based airforce which will suppress the Mirage V's and their dreaded Exocets. The Harriers won't do the job.


Finally, What would the start of a Sino-Indian naval conflict look like?

One speculative scenario:

Indian navy interdicts shipping to Pakistan looking for secret weapon caches purchased from North Korea. North Korean vessels regularly sail under false flag -usually China's. India may 'accidentally' interdict and board Chinese vessels they suspect of transporting arms to Pakistan. Chinese protest leads to sending a show of force. Chinese fleet visits Pakistan's harbor. Indian Navy, suspecting it has the advantage, attempts to blockade the Harbor.

The Haggis hits the fan.
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PLAN in the Indian Ocean will have to fight the IN on its home turf. Its logistical tail will be enourmous and will have to go through the Straights of Malacca. India owns the Andaman and Nicobar Islands that effectively guard the straight and has stationed several squadrons of fighter bombers there.

Furthermore, it cannot bring about its full strength. It still needs several ships to protect its interest back home. Japan might take advantage of the situation.

Ships on a blockaded harbor have a huge disadvantage. They cannot manuever and their exact location is known. A political solution would be a viable option.

Indian ships are being equipped with the BARAK sams. The Viraat and the 3 Delhi class destroyers already have them. I believe they can intercept an exocet. Can any of the PLAN ships intercept the URan and Brahmos missiles?

PLAN's lack of aircraft carriers will be its main disadvantage. The naval task force with out air cover operating within range of the IAF are very vulnerable.
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Well not to take too much part on the conversation (i dont like much of waging imaginary wars), But i have taken notice that the acompanied list included few Akulas and ATVs for indian navy. Now, if IN would be able to field four-to-six nuclear attack submarines, it will greatly increases the capapilityes of Indian isde and effectively blocks any chinese surface precence in Indian ocean (at least if following the same logic that some of here manifests; that similar number of chinese inferior SSNs will imobileze entire indian fleet and its advantage in carrier operations)
Much in here has been said about Indian isdes lack of ASw, but what can be said about chinese ASW?? they poses no long range martime patrol aircraft and are only about to introdut an medium range platform based on An-12 (whit roughly same performance as Il-38) and The only thinkable operational carrier for china in 2012 can only deliver squardon of Kamov helicopters.

At least now, none of the new chinese surface combatants are dedicated ASW platforms, but more of multirole ships, whit adequite subhunting capapilityes and older ships lacks even that. It is also note worthy that chinese side requires esential replenishment and support units also be present and those offers a target to IN scorpenes and Kilos that they just cannot refuse...
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
It will only worsen chinese situation, as all thats left for chinese Indian ocean squardon are few old noisy nuke subs and maybe one of these new and mystic 093 still running trials so maybe too risky to send into flame zone... No carrier, only one additional sovromenyy and maybe the 051C ready for service...

In these kind of scenarios, time is the best avantage forr china so we could asume it has been able to modernizese its forces properly...
 
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FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
How about we look at Pakistan's assets and see how they can brought into play

1. Support from China

2. Support from all the countries in the mid-east

3. Pakistan might also start looking at complicating matters for India
via Indonesia and Malaysia. Pakistan has a lot of contacts there and they
won't be too pleased with a large Indian navy

Ok lets play
 
I

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
FreeAsia2000 said:
How about we look at Pakistan's assets and see how they can brought into play

1. Support from China

2. Support from all the countries in the mid-east

3. Pakistan might also start looking at complicating matters for India
via Indonesia and Malaysia. Pakistan has a lot of contacts there and they
won't be too pleased with a large Indian navy

Ok lets play
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Sadly, the Pakistani navy is outclassed by the Indian navy in all departments.
Except for the 2 Agosta B, PN is dwarft in both quantity and quality.

In the Submarine force, PN is outnumbered by 10 Improve Kilo with Club missiles, and 2 HDW SSK's.

For the Surface Fleet, PN does not have area air defence and its anti-ship punched is limited to harpoon and exocet missiles.

The PAF might be able to help. But again I doubet the PAF will be able to allocate significant assets when it is already out numbered by the IAF. Perhaps a squadron or 2 of Mirages for anti-ship duties can be spared from the western borders.
 
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ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Does the naval conflict can escalate into land ??? :(

For example an armour thrust into India through Mayanmar and also the ensuring air conflicts !! What the Chinese guys think about this side of Indian Ocean conflict !!!!!!!
 
crazyinsane105

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
IDonT said:
Sadly, the Pakistani navy is outclassed by the Indian navy in all departments.
Except for the 2 Agosta B, PN is dwarft in both quantity and quality.

In the Submarine force, PN is outnumbered by 10 Improve Kilo with Club missiles, and 2 HDW SSK's.

For the Surface Fleet, PN does not have area air defence and its anti-ship punched is limited to harpoon and exocet missiles.

The PAF might be able to help. But again I doubet the PAF will be able to allocate significant assets when it is already out numbered by the IAF. Perhaps a squadron or 2 of Mirages for anti-ship duties can be spared from the western borders.
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I think you forgot to mention the fact that Pakistan has the Babur missile which can be made into an anti-ship missile. Also, we are talking about 2012 here. We can expect relatively large numbers of JF-17 aircraft within Pakistan's arsenal along with some numbers of another 4th generation aircraft (it can be the J-10, Gripen, etc.) Another thing is that the JF-17 will probably be able to hold Chinese made anti-ship missiles. Let's say it can hold up to 3 anti-ship missiles. Two squadrons consisting of 15 aircraft each armed with anti-ship missiles and being escorted by either F-16's or the other 4th generation fighter can be a very deadly force. Now, I am not saying both squadrons are flying towards the IN fleet. I am saying that maybe 8 JF-17's along with 4 F-16's/other fighter to provide air defense can really wreck havoc upon the fleet. It would be about 24 anti-ship missiles coming towards the IN fleet (I cannot say for sure that they will be sub or supersonic, but they will most likely be supersonic). Add to the fact that an Agosta 90B nearby with upgraded electronic systems may also fire off a Babur (that is IF the Babur can be fitted onto the Agosta by 2012) and a torpedo. So that would be a saturated missile attack aimed at the Varyag carrier. Let's say about a third get through the defense shields. The Varyag would be mission killed. Or if Pakistan decides to target the Varyag's escorts, there will be more ships mission killed or even sunk. Right now, Pakistan is not in a very powerful military state. However, we are talking about 7 years from now what will happen. Just look at China seven years ago and look at where it is right now. Same thing will happen to Pakistan.
 
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