Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Brumby

Major
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

It seems you guys don't understand how we feel. Maybe because you guys are not in our shoes.

I have nothing to say anymore.

Just go with where your heart leads you. There will be others who will disagree with you. Freedom of expression cuts both ways. All the best in whatever you plan to do and may peace and safety goes with you.
 
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Just go with where your heart leads you. There will be others who will disagree with you. Freedom of expression cuts both ways. All the best in whatever you plan to do and may peace and safety goes with you.

I understand they can disagree, but why I also feel pain here too is because I feel a sense of affiliation with you guys. As Asian, Chinese, as one who deep down supports China and wants to see our people for the best, I never see you guys different from me. However this is my hometown, and they are my people. How much does it take for protestors to ignore tear gas and remain on the streets crying for democracy and to support the students? Do we guarantee HK will not be silenced forever? We are now the only Chinese city with this sense of freedom of speech, desires and dreams for democracy, and willing to speak out and be in the streets. Does China really want to suppress HK and destroy this behaviour, values? They killed their own citizens in Beijing 25 years ago. Are they going to do this again?

Can you guys accept China doing this to their own people, to the HK brothers who believes in democracy, and have absolute care or concern for their safety and their spirits and why they stand so strong even after tear gas?

We are Chinese too. We are your brothers. We donated the most in Sichuan earthquake. HK's hope was killed, but because CCP killed it, despite 17 years of chances to see changes. Tonight's demonstration is after 17 years. We had given 17 years of chances.

If it truly doesn't bother you, you can say it. It's your freedom, after all.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

The issue is not disruption but whether it is peaceful.


Quote one example in history that supports such an assertion without involving the mass movement of people that goes with it. In other words, an idea or vision itself doesn't change things without people movement.

You either didn't understand or was just setting up a strawman.

The point isn't about people movement/participation, of course no idea will amount to anything if no one cares about it, and that is entirely my point.

Occupy whatever protestors are in effect trying to force others to listen to their message by forcibly stopping them from doing what they want or going where they choose. That speaks to the weakness of their message and its inherent lack of popular support that they have to resort to such blackmail tactics.

If their message had real traction, people would be flocking to hear it even if the messengers had to whisper it in hiding.

What we have now is a minority holding the majority hostage by trying to paralyse core areas/functions of the city to the detriment of all, cheered on by westerners.

There also appears to be a great deal of dis and misinformation, with some leaders claiming China was trying to 'reclaim HK', well guess what sleeping beauty, that already happened nearly two decades ago and the sky didn't fall down did it?

And nowhere has Beijing said anything about clawing back any if the special rights and privileges HKers enjoy. You are getting an expansion of those rights and privileges in fact. Maybe not as much as some of you might have thought/wanted, but it is still more than what you have now and a hell of a lot more than what you had under the British, when interestingly enough, no one seemed all that fussed about democracy.

Its like a kid getting given a new car and throwing a tantrum because it isn't an Austin Martin. Guess if that makes it more or less likely Beijing will grant you any more gifts in the future.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

I always have a lot of respect for you, Engineer, and Plawolf. However I hope you guys can understand how hard I feel right now, to watch my people still in the streets, staying in the streets, chanting slogans, many not leaving, being treated harshly, fired at with tear gas grenades, threatened with rubber bullets, and even possible PLA deployment.

This is my hometown, my people. Yes it's emotions now, but it's pain, seeing my people in pain and still standing strong and hard.

Hm, ever been 'kettled' in London or get caught up in a US police action against Occupy Wall Street protestors?

Believe me, what is happening in HK is mild in comparison, and it is inevitable when you try to disrupt core functions of any major city anywhere in the world.

Talk of PLA involvement seems just like the kind of false rumors typical of the organisers of this movement to whip people into a frenzy and turn violent.

I know it must be hard to think straight being caught up in it all with all that strong emotion swirling around, and I think that's precisely the aim and point.

The organisers got some people to do something they know will force the police to act, not as a last resort, in fact it was pretty much the first thing they suggested, precisely because they know the police will have to act, and so they can get some pictures to stoke the fires and get more people involved.

Hell the Occupy Central leaders even jumped on the bandwagon and usurped a different, unrelated protest and brought forward the planned start of their occupy event by several days because they were so lacking in support and so keen to cause as much disruption as possible.

The deeper you look into the actions and motivates of the organisers, the harder it is to see how they have the best interest of HK and even their demonstrators in mind when they plan their actions.

If one was going out of ones way to provoke a heavy handed police response, one would struggle to think of many things one could do the organisers haven't got their followers doing right now other than maybe attack police.
 
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Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Hm, ever been 'kettled' in London or get caught up in a US police action against Occupy Wall Street protestors?

Believe me, what is happening in HK is mild in comparison, and it is inevitable when you try to disrupt core functions of any major city anywhere in the world.

Talk of PLA involvement seems just like the kind of false rumors typical of the organisers of this movement to whip people into a frenzy and turn violent.

I know it must be hard to think straight being caught up in it all with all that strong emotion swirling around, and I think that's precisely the aim and point.

The organisers got some people to do something they know will force the police to act, not as a last resort, in fact it was pretty much the first thing they suggested, precisely because they know the police will have to act, and so they can get some pictures to stoke the fires and get more people involved.

Trust me I know what you mean and I agree with you. What the HKPF is doing is really mellow, which was what I told Blitzio. It's just that HK had never experienced these, and right now they are writing history with this currently being the most violent clash in HK history since handover, as we speak.

And the thing is, after several tear gas grenades, now the streets are packed with people literally. There were less people before, and now it's full. Teacher foundations announced they will go on strike tomorrow, and a civil servant training school also announced they will cease all civil servant training programs in response to the handling of the police today.

You guys must understand, we are really feeling this for real. We had given a lot of patience..17 years, but the current CE burned everything up so quick, it's insane.

I have never seen HK act like this. I am first saddened, and now proud of my people. I wish them the best and safety, and wish the same relentless spirit for anyone who chooses to stand up for themselves.
 
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

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When I mean they came back..
 

Brumby

Major
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

You either didn't understand or was just setting up a strawman.

The point isn't about people movement/participation, of course no idea will amount to anything if no one cares about it, and that is entirely my point.

Occupy whatever protestors are in effect trying to force others to listen to their message by forcibly stopping them from doing what they want or going where they choose. That speaks to the weakness of their message and its inherent lack of popular support that they have to resort to such blackmail tactics.

If their message had real traction, people would be flocking to hear it even if the messengers had to whisper it in hiding.

You are intentionally creating an artificial scenario that doesn't exist in the real world i.e. a movement that is confined in people's mind and who communicates through quite whispers. Ideas with traction will eventually coalesce into some form of people movement and in some cases expression of protest. I don't have a problem with it as long as it is peaceful. Unfortunately even peaceful protest disrupts.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

I got to say, if that thing is what majority of the Hong Kong people want, my heart is with you and I wish you all the best in getting it.

But I'm worried at the same time.

I'm worried that the leader you selected again had to represent the interests of tycoons instead of ordinary Hong Kong people.

I'm worried that the leader you selected had to represent the interests of Beijing.

I'm worried that the leader you selected, although has a heart full of Hong Kong's citizens, is unable to deliver because of incapability.

I'm worried that HK, being a small city that can't afford much unrest and protests, eventually lose its attraction to businesses because of future democratic protests that's bound to happen.

I'm worried that, when everything goes your way, but it didn't turn out well, who are you going to blame next?
 
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

There's an old Chinese saying, "it's easy to conquer the nation, but difficult to run it".

Before the CCP came to power, people too held great hopes and back then they were much, much more enthusiastic than today's Hong Kong people. Millions sacrificed their lives in the process, until the last moment of their lives they still believed that they died for the right cause--to build a better China, a better future, a communist utopia that's free of hunger, exploitation, corruption, warlords, and full of happiness, joy, fulfillment.

I think what happened after that is very familiar to us. That utopia didn't come, instead it was pretty much the opposite case.

It took an entire generation people's suffering, a catastrophic political disaster, and some luck combined with Deng and his peers' vision, to save China from the shithole it was in and moved towards the right direction.

The same story has happened again and again and again, even today, even before our very own eyes. It is always easy to summon people under a righteous cause, "in the name of freedom and democracy!", they said. As if these slogans are magic words that somehow promises a better future. Based on past and recent experiences, I highly doubt so.

Look at Libya. Look at Egypt. Look at Tunisia. Look at Russia after the fall of the USSR. Look at the Eastern European countries. Look at Taiwan.

Taiwan is probably a better case. It, too, was one of the most promising economies in the world, and one of the envies of Asia before the democratic change. Four Asian tigers, remember? When people elected Chen Shui-bian, he was once the "son of Taiwan", then what happened? Huge corruption. Fraud. Tried, jailed.

Then there came Ma Ying-jeou. But today as I browse through Taiwan's forums, there's NONE praising him. Some even said they were "blind" enough to vote him and felt ashamed.

Almost 20 years have passed. Taiwan's economy is still stagnating. Young people's pay isn't rising, but everything else is increasing. When I was in Taiwan last year, my guide was telling me with a very worried face, "we could only choose the less evil and corrupt from the two evil and corrupt." It took the Taipei City's government to build 4km of metro lines in 8 years. While during that same amount of Time, China build 10,000 km of high-speed rail and thousands of kilometres of metro lines all over the country.

Look at the US. Obama came to presidency with his famous slogan "YES WE CAN". Where's the change he promised?

Don't get me wrong, I can fully emphasize with the ordinary HK people. Today's protests aren't just a protest to fight for "democracy" and "freedom", it is a protest for hundreds of thousands of HK people to vent and express their anger and frustration, and to fight for better future--or at least as they would imagine so.

I'm neither bashing democracy. This system has many many good points and I think all governments of the world need to ultimately become one that's based on democratic principles.

What I'm saying is, do the people of Hong Kong really understand and know what they're fighting for? Is there a clear plan, or strategy, that's carefully and thoroughly crafted, that suits the realities of Hong Kong and anticipates changes in the world, that will make ordinary Hong Kong people's lives better?

Or do they simply want democracy and true universal suffrage for the sake of it, but unsure or unclear of what to do next? And just believe that somehow, in one way or another, HK's economy will revive, and ordinary Hong Kong people can finally afford a proper apartment after "true democracy" is established?

I'm sure we know what we are getting ourselves into. if it doesn't work he ain't coming back. plus, pro-Chinese candidates will always be around. if we can't handle the pandemocrats we may consider someone from the other camp. regardless gotta give it a try. also China shant worry too much. hk is so connected to China for economy and Hk is so business based, the CE has to look out for the business people's interests and still function healthy with China. and if we mess up we at least wont blame China
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

and if you guys don't believe me, think about how or why Hkers and Asians around the world are rallying in support of what's happening. you won't think they are all ranting and rallying for the wrong reasons would you?

Loudness or sheer number doesn't necessarily make something right. And it sure doesn't guarantee the most pleasant outcome.

I'm not saying they're wrong. Just suggesting there's such a possibility.

But there' no harm to keep rallying and protesting and trying I guess. It at least gives hope.
 
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