Thanks Bro, great and acurate account of China's design and shipbuilding capability, China is not copy cat as some western media claim.
Photo of what seems to be China's new submarine revealed in official report
By GT staff reporters Published: Jul 19, 2022 07:46 PM
The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy recently revealed in an official report what seems to be a new type of conventionally powered submarine that foreign media speculated could offer enhanced stealth capabilities thanks to its new sail design.
Posted by the official WeChat account of the PLA Navy on Monday, the report introduced new upgrades in sailors' canteen services. One of the photos attached to the report particularly attracted military observers - in the background of the photo was a large screen showing a docked submarine, with sailors lining up on the submarine's back in what seems to be a ceremony of some sort.
This is the first time the PLA Navy has revealed this type of conventionally powered submarine in commission, Shanghai-based news website eastday.com reported on Monday.
Believed to be a new entry to the Type 039 family, possibly called the Type 039C, the new submarine is different from the Type 039A and Type 039B in appearance in terms of its unique, angled sail, eastday.com reported.
In 2021, foreign media including navalnews.com and thedrive.com reported on a new submarine when it underwent tests after launch. These reports speculated that the angled sail design could reduce the radar cross-section and make the submarine stealthier above water, provide hydrodynamic advantages and house new systems.
With the new submarine, China became the second country in the world to develop a submarine with an angled sail design after Sweden's A26-class submarine. Foreign reports drew comparisons between the Chinese and Swedish submarines with some analysts claiming China copied the Swedish design.
But the first A26 just had its keel laying ceremony a few weeks ago, meaning it still has a long way to go before commissioning, while the Chinese submarine has seemingly already entered service, the eastday.com report said.
Although the two submarines both use angled sail designs, the details are very different. China's shipbuilding industry has made fast strides and is fully capable of making independent, innovative designs, an expert who requested anonymity told the Global Times on Tuesday.
Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Thanks Bro, great and acurate account of China's design and shipbuilding capability, China is not copy cat as some western media claim.
From Naval News
»»China’s Newest Attack Submarine Now Stationed Near Taiwan
Click to Enlarge, The latest variant of the Chinese Navy's Yuan class submarine, of which only one has so far been built, is stationed near Taiwan. The submarine is now part of the East Sea Fleet, responsible for operations around Taiwan.
The Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) latest submarine, which was only commissioned in July, is based in their East Sea Fleet. This fleet faces off against Taiwan in a direct sense, being responsible for that area of operations.
The new boat represents the cutting edge of Chinese non-nuclear submarines.
The submarine, which was first reported by Naval News , is a new variant of the Type-039A Yuan Class. It’s exact designation is not known (China does not feel the need to tell us!), but Western analysts believe that it is the Type-039C or -D. We know that it was built in Wuhan, and sailed to Shanghai for fitting out. It has now been commissioned as an operational boat, just over a year after launch. This is very fast for a new class of submarine.
There has been speculation that the sail may house a vertical launch system (VLS) for powerful new missiles. This is unlikely however as it is, overall, the same size as earlier Yuan class boats. The submarine can likely carry the same torpedoes and YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missiles of the earlier boats.
The submarine also features a towed array sonar, which runs out through the upper rudder. This may be a significant improvement over the existing Yuans.
It’s propulsion almost certainly includes a form of AIP (air independent power). AIP allows submarines to cruise for longer periods before having to snorkel to run its diesel engines, which are needed to recharge its batteries. AIP does not make it similar to a nuclear boat, but they do make it more survivable than non-AIP boats.
The Chinese Navy (PLAN) already has the largest fleet of AIP submarines.
The commissioning ceremony was in Ningbo where the PLAN’s East Sea Fleet has its headquarters. NavalNews understands that the submarine is based at Daxie Dao Submarine Base, alongside older Yuan Class boats. This base is protected by a rocky archipelago and is near to several naval bases.
This places it directly opposing the Taiwanese Navy. The East Sea Fleet submarine bases are north of the main Taiwanese Island, about 500 km (310 miles) south. It also faces off against Japan’s island chain which act as a natural barrier to the open Pacific. China is increasingly operating east of this.
The other two Taiwanese submarines are much more modern, but still dated today. Designed in the 1960s, two Dutch Zwaardvis class boats were ordered, as the Hai Lung class, in the 1980s. Still considered relatively capable, these lack the AIP of the latest Chinese submarines.
Four submarines, however good they are, can easily be considered too few. Especially as the Chinese Navy increasingly operates assertively on both coasts of the island. But effective political pressure from China, over decades, has inhibited Taiwan from purchasing more submarines. Now finally Taiwan ius turning to an indigenous solution.
The new Taiwanese submarines will be home-built. The first Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) is already under construction. It is being assembled very quickly and could, if reports are correct, be . The new boat is expected to be very similar to the Hai Lung class.
Overall China retains a numerical and technological edge in submarines. The addition of this new design adds to this, showing that China is continuing to evolve and improve its non-nuclear boats.
»»China’s Newest Attack Submarine Now Stationed Near Taiwan
Click to Enlarge, The latest variant of the Chinese Navy's Yuan class submarine, of which only one has so far been built, is stationed near Taiwan. The submarine is now part of the East Sea Fleet, responsible for operations around Taiwan.
China’s Newest Attack Submarine Now Stationed Near Taiwan
China's East Sea Fleet, across from Taiwan, has received a new submarine. The boat is unlike any currently in service, being distinguished by a radically angled sail.
11 Aug 2022The Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) latest submarine, which was only commissioned in July, is based in their East Sea Fleet. This fleet faces off against Taiwan in a direct sense, being responsible for that area of operations.
The new boat represents the cutting edge of Chinese non-nuclear submarines.
The submarine, which was first reported by Naval News , is a new variant of the Type-039A Yuan Class. It’s exact designation is not known (China does not feel the need to tell us!), but Western analysts believe that it is the Type-039C or -D. We know that it was built in Wuhan, and sailed to Shanghai for fitting out. It has now been commissioned as an operational boat, just over a year after launch. This is very fast for a new class of submarine.
The New Submarine
The new submarine features a distinctive faceted sail. This has a chine running along its length, like a stealth plane. It is reminiscent of the Swedish A-26 design, but it is not a direct copy. Possibly this is to reduce its radar signature while running on the surface.There has been speculation that the sail may house a vertical launch system (VLS) for powerful new missiles. This is unlikely however as it is, overall, the same size as earlier Yuan class boats. The submarine can likely carry the same torpedoes and YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missiles of the earlier boats.
The submarine also features a towed array sonar, which runs out through the upper rudder. This may be a significant improvement over the existing Yuans.
It’s propulsion almost certainly includes a form of AIP (air independent power). AIP allows submarines to cruise for longer periods before having to snorkel to run its diesel engines, which are needed to recharge its batteries. AIP does not make it similar to a nuclear boat, but they do make it more survivable than non-AIP boats.
The Chinese Navy (PLAN) already has the largest fleet of AIP submarines.
The commissioning ceremony was in Ningbo where the PLAN’s East Sea Fleet has its headquarters. NavalNews understands that the submarine is based at Daxie Dao Submarine Base, alongside older Yuan Class boats. This base is protected by a rocky archipelago and is near to several naval bases.
This places it directly opposing the Taiwanese Navy. The East Sea Fleet submarine bases are north of the main Taiwanese Island, about 500 km (310 miles) south. It also faces off against Japan’s island chain which act as a natural barrier to the open Pacific. China is increasingly operating east of this.
Taiwan’s Submarines
Taiwan, in comparison, has just four submarines. Two of these are World War Two vintage ex-US Navy fleet submarines. These have been modernized, first by America in the 1950s, and again for Taiwan. But they still represent the world’s oldest operational submarines. They are, as platforms, out matched by the Chinese submarines.The other two Taiwanese submarines are much more modern, but still dated today. Designed in the 1960s, two Dutch Zwaardvis class boats were ordered, as the Hai Lung class, in the 1980s. Still considered relatively capable, these lack the AIP of the latest Chinese submarines.
Four submarines, however good they are, can easily be considered too few. Especially as the Chinese Navy increasingly operates assertively on both coasts of the island. But effective political pressure from China, over decades, has inhibited Taiwan from purchasing more submarines. Now finally Taiwan ius turning to an indigenous solution.
The new Taiwanese submarines will be home-built. The first Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) is already under construction. It is being assembled very quickly and could, if reports are correct, be . The new boat is expected to be very similar to the Hai Lung class.
Overall China retains a numerical and technological edge in submarines. The addition of this new design adds to this, showing that China is continuing to evolve and improve its non-nuclear boats.
I like how they say that the 039C "might not be a copy of the Swedish A26" when the A-26 is purely on PowerPoint. It's more accurate to say that the "A-26 might not be a copy of the 039C".
"but it is not a direct copy" - The sail, while conceptually similar, is a different shape. The sail mounts differently to the hull. The A26 will have an X-form rudder, while the 039C has a Cruciform rudder. The upper casing is different. The A26 displaces 1900t, and the 039C 3600t. The 039C was commissioned in July 2022, the A26 was laid down in June 2022.
ARA "San Luis" (S-32) was a damaged Submarine, quite damaged, and launched a torpedo (which did not work) 9 km away.
Now let's think of a well-functioning Submarine with long-range torpedoes, say 40 km.
And now let's think about a present (2020-) and future (2030-) Chinese diesel-electric Submarine with (A) YG-18 missiles of maybe 500 km range and (B) AIP and/or new Batteries.
...
I was checking CSSC 712 Institute's website and noticed they listed a 5MW permanent magnet motor on their product page.
5MW is just about right for a Type 039 sized sub (Type 214 supposedly uses a 2.85 MW permanent magnet motor for a 1860 ton hull). There was a report in 2017 on 712 Institute testing a permanent magnet motor on a submarine in Sanya.
Since for AIP submarines PMM is just a no-brainer over induction motor (quieter, lighter, smaller, more efficient esp. at lower speed) , the onboard testing of the 712 5MW PMM began in 2017 and the website lists it as a product, I think it's highly likely Type 039C uses this motor.
I'm very big on Chinese permanent magnet motor development because Chinese wind turbine industry is absolutely huge and modern wind turbines use permanent magnet generators. Electric motors and generators are two sides of the same coin. Once you mastered generators you're not very far away from motors.
Dongfang Electric's 13+mW direct drive permanent magnet generator for offshore wind turbines.
Going back to Type 039C. 712 Institute's website lists this 140kW fuel cell on its product page
We know 712 Institute is in charge of fuel cell AIP development
I can find no report on onboard testing of fuel cell AIP, but AIP is probably more classified than electric motors. Anyway, we know 712's fuel cell systems received civilian ship certification in 2021.
Remember Type 214 with its 2.85mW PMM? It also has a fuel cell AIP system made of two 120kW fuel units. Well 120kW x 2 = 240 kW. Let's put 3 of 712 Institute's 140 kW fuel cell units together. 140 kW x 3 = 420 kW. 240 kW / 420 kW is roughly 0.57. You know what's also 0.57? 2.85 mW / 5 mW. Similar design goals for endurance? There's also a securities report on Chinese fuel cell industry which claims the newest Chinese SSK replaced Stirling engine with fuel cells.
Make of those what you will.
The first Type 212A was commissioned in 2005 but the propulsion system of the more recent Type 218SG doesn't seem to differ from 212A too much (PMM + fuel cell AIP). Assuming Type 039C does have both PMM and fuel cell AIP, it seems a good candidate for a major production run to replace all of PLAN's Type 035s and Kilos. The newest PLAN Kilo is almost 20 years old now.
5MW is just about right for a Type 039 sized sub (Type 214 supposedly uses a 2.85 MW permanent magnet motor for a 1860 ton hull). There was a report in 2017 on 712 Institute testing a permanent magnet motor on a submarine in Sanya.
Since for AIP submarines PMM is just a no-brainer over induction motor (quieter, lighter, smaller, more efficient esp. at lower speed) , the onboard testing of the 712 5MW PMM began in 2017 and the website lists it as a product, I think it's highly likely Type 039C uses this motor.
I'm very big on Chinese permanent magnet motor development because Chinese wind turbine industry is absolutely huge and modern wind turbines use permanent magnet generators. Electric motors and generators are two sides of the same coin. Once you mastered generators you're not very far away from motors.
Dongfang Electric's 13+mW direct drive permanent magnet generator for offshore wind turbines.
Going back to Type 039C. 712 Institute's website lists this 140kW fuel cell on its product page
We know 712 Institute is in charge of fuel cell AIP development
I can find no report on onboard testing of fuel cell AIP, but AIP is probably more classified than electric motors. Anyway, we know 712's fuel cell systems received civilian ship certification in 2021.
Remember Type 214 with its 2.85mW PMM? It also has a fuel cell AIP system made of two 120kW fuel units. Well 120kW x 2 = 240 kW. Let's put 3 of 712 Institute's 140 kW fuel cell units together. 140 kW x 3 = 420 kW. 240 kW / 420 kW is roughly 0.57. You know what's also 0.57? 2.85 mW / 5 mW. Similar design goals for endurance? There's also a securities report on Chinese fuel cell industry which claims the newest Chinese SSK replaced Stirling engine with fuel cells.
Make of those what you will.
The first Type 212A was commissioned in 2005 but the propulsion system of the more recent Type 218SG doesn't seem to differ from 212A too much (PMM + fuel cell AIP). Assuming Type 039C does have both PMM and fuel cell AIP, it seems a good candidate for a major production run to replace all of PLAN's Type 035s and Kilos. The newest PLAN Kilo is almost 20 years old now.
broadsword
Brigadier
Don't really know anything about axial flux motors but it's a motor geometry so it should be compared to radial flux motors (which is almost every electric motor). A motor can be both PMM and axial. From a casual glance (I'm trained as a mathematician not an electric engineer), the main advantage of an axial flux motor is supposed to be its torque density (much smaller and lighter for the same output) and the main disadvantage is difficulties in manufacturing. Radial flux PMMs are already so small and light I don't think further reductions are that important. Also axial flux motors are shorter but not smaller in terms of cross section and the shaft is in a somewhat awkward position for submarine use (good for cars though). Don't think it's going to be worth it for submarines.
The Chinese company Pangood claims it's the leader in axial flux motors with most patents. Don't know about the industry at all so I can't judge.
Thanks for your analysis. I discussed this with @FairAndUnbiased a while back on the possibility of different motor on 039C. To me, it makes no sense for them to declassify engine/AIP performance on 039B and take 4 more years to develop 039C. A while back, there was speculation that they'd use a mini nuke for 039C, but I don't think that happened here. Based on the shape of the mast, it seems like they want to reduce radar reflection, which could indicate their willingness to recharge frequently. That would only make sense if they were moving to lithium ion batteries (which China is very far ahead in). So, we speculated that they went with either pure LIB or fuel cell + LIB. Stirling AIP doesn't make sense for submarines built in 2020s. Here are things to think about.