052C/052D Class Destroyers

[The Observer]

112, 113, 115 and 116 will be replaced by 055 with the same pennants.

101 to 116 will be 055. Question is 117, 118, and 119 will remain 052D or will they have their pennants changed (127, 128, 129), so that 117, 118 and 119 will be given to 055. PLAN is known to change pennants when it is inconvenient.

The MLU destroyers will stay a while longer but eventually get replaced by 052x, when their turn comes and after the remaining pennants run out. For example 160 and 166 will arrive first before 167 will be retired and pennant transferred to a new 052x. Then 168 and finally 169.

I think that retiring the old destroyers will be appropriate as they might cost more to operate than a 054B while having less capability and less comfortable for the crew.

At the end assuming 117 to 119 are transferred to 127 to 129, 120 to 139 will be all 052x, then 150 to 179. 140 to 149, 180 to 199 will remain reserved for another type of destroyer.

I am also suspecting that 052DL itself might be superceded by a further improved 052D batch, perhaps with another radar alteration. At one point we may also see the MLU of the 052C.

If China starts retiring their older destroyers (051C and up), will they start a reserve fleet like the USN?

 

[tphuang]

Well, everything before 052C are definitely going away. They were just quick iterations until China got a ship with a modern CIC. They should look for friendly countries where they can donate them. At this point, I don't even know how long the 052C will stick around. The first two were launched 20 years ago. Maybe they retire them by 2030.

 

[Gloire_bb]

If China starts retiring their older destroyers (051C and up), will they start a reserve fleet like the USN?

it's a bit early for their retirement unless there's something wrong with them.
They still have a ~decade or so of designed lifespan in them, within which they probably won't be too bothersome from the maintenance point of view. MLUed units especially so.

It would've be different if China wasn't expanding its navy, but expanding its navy it does. Combat-relevant hulls don't smell.

 

[The Observer]

it's a bit early for their retirement unless there's something wrong with them.
They still have a ~decade or so of designed lifespan in them, within which they probably won't be too bothersome from the maintenance point of view. MLUed units especially so.

It would've be different if China wasn't expanding its navy, but expanding its navy it does. Combat-relevant hulls don't smell.

Indeed that is the case. However, the premise of my question is when PLAN had expanded to its desired level (having 052DL/055 on all fleet lineup), yet the older DDGs still have some potential life in them, though not much.

Do the PLAN/Chinese gov just gift/bargain sale them to friendly countries or start sending them to a newly founded naval reserve instead? it's in the context of currently heightened tension that might stay into the foreseeable future.

 

[Tam]

If China starts retiring their older destroyers (051C and up), will they start a reserve fleet like the USN?

I don't think so. Not every USN idea is a good one for you to emulate.

1. Takes up valuable port space.
2. Costs money to maintain.
3. The older the ship, the higher the costs of maintenance.
4. Older ships do not share the same parts as the newer ships, complicating your logistics and maintenance.
5. They are not as comfortable for your officers and sailors.
6. Poor bang for the buck.
7. The older they get, the greater they pose as a hazard to your crew.

Some of the ships might end up as training ships or museum ships. Due to the issues involved, I don't think they will be given away to allies either.

 

[Tam]

it's a bit early for their retirement unless there's something wrong with them.
They still have a ~decade or so of designed lifespan in them, within which they probably won't be too bothersome from the maintenance point of view. MLUed units especially so.

It would've be different if China wasn't expanding its navy, but expanding its navy it does. Combat-relevant hulls don't smell.

Mechanically there is nothing wrong with them assuming proper and diligent maintenance. What's wrong is the very idea of it. You are operating destroyer sized crews for frigate level abilities. They could be operating crews double of that of a 054A, but your capabilities are not much better except in the antiship role, while being inferior in the antisubmarine role (051B, 052B, Sov). Steam operation is more touchy to maintain and is more dangerous than diesels. Navies have prematurely retired ships before.

They will still operate until the time comes and they won't no longer.

 

[Tam]

Well, everything before 052C are definitely going away. They were just quick iterations until China got a ship with a modern CIC. They should look for friendly countries where they can donate them. At this point, I don't even know how long the 052C will stick around. The first two were launched 20 years ago. Maybe they retire them by 2030.

They will figure something out to replace the DA80s with GT25000s. I think the first two still has the Ukrainian turbines but the other four has the domestic turbines.

I think the 052C are built with future upgradability in mind, more than previous ships before it. Ultimately this is going to be decided by both the bean counters and the engineers working out the tiny details.

 

[sndef888]

Indeed that is the case. However, the premise of my question is when PLAN had expanded to its desired level (having 052DL/055 on all fleet lineup), yet the older DDGs still have some potential life in them, though not much.

Do the PLAN/Chinese gov just gift/bargain sale them to friendly countries or start sending them to a newly founded naval reserve instead? it's in the context of currently heightened tension that might stay into the foreseeable future.

I could see it happening maybe for 052B but not the other classes. They're way too finicky and unique in terms of propulsion/electronics/weapons. Many of those early chinese sensors are not well integrated. By the time the foreign navy learns how to properly use them they'll be nearing the end of their life.

Though of course, they could simply strip away everything and turn it into an OPV

Other than that, I could also see 052C getting an early retirement and transfer to Pakistan Navy

 

[sndef888]

I wonder what's the timeline for the rumoured 19 052Ds.

Does anyone know if there are any under construction in Huangpu/Jiangnan/HDZH?

 

[Lethe]

Mechanically there is nothing wrong with them assuming proper and diligent maintenance. What's wrong is the very idea of it. You are operating destroyer sized crews for frigate level abilities. They could be operating crews double of that of a 054A, but your capabilities are not much better except in the antiship role, while being inferior in the antisubmarine role (051B, 052B, Sov). Steam operation is more touchy to maintain and is more dangerous than diesels. Navies have prematurely retired ships before.

Such hyper-optimization for efficiency is typically the mark of a mature, stagnant, or declining power, as with mass retirements of older vessels in the United States and Europe at the end of the Cold War. Funds suddenly got tight, so they had to be spent more efficiently, which led to the mass disposal of still very credible vessels such as Type 22 and Spruance.

I have long been followed the retirement patterns of PLAN's older vessels precisely because this points to the bigger picture of what is going on. With a steady influx of new, modern vessels into the fleet, retaining obsolete vessels such as 053H1, 051 to serve out >30 year lifespans can reasonably be questioned and makes sense only within a basically expansionist framework. Conversely, if PLAN now becomes focused on making more efficient use of personnel by retiring still-useful vessels early, it suggests that expansionist era is drawing to a close.