Chinese semiconductor industry

[ZeEa5KPul]

LMAO. Isn't this the same fear which US has regarding China?

It's more the fear the US had with providing advanced technology to Israel, which then at least tried to sell some of it to China.

I think it is okay, more customer means more money and more inputs and feedback. I don't think China should imitate US "method" of banning weapon/tech to any countries

I'm not talking about a ban, but it would be appropriate to have some assurances that this equipment won't be used to harm China's interests.

What about Russian automotive, aerospace and heavy industries? They certainly need chips.

Chinese fabs can make those chips under contract like TSMC. It doesn't necessarily need to be a Russian foundry that does it. Russia can also buy off-the-shelf Chinese chips.

 

[Overbom]

I think it is okay, more customer means more money and more inputs and feedback. I don't think China should imitate US "method" of banning weapon/tech to any countries

Its a new world where Chips are the new oil. We are at the initial stage of having a digital OPEC cartel.

As such, China should be careful with such technology. Of course this doesn't mean that China sees Russia as an enemy or neutral. Instead, they are friends, but even between friends, business should be handled in a business-like manner.

Thus, strategic assurances should be asked for and provided, before China exports such a valuable piece of tech

(For example, similar to the assurances that China made to Russia, to not sell the J-16 overseas)

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

That's all well and good as far as it goes, and I'm generally quite sympathetic to Russia. At the same time, I'm not terribly thrilled by the prospect of Chinese chip fabrication equipment being used to build components of weapons exported to the likes of India and Vietnam.

It would actually draw Vietnam into the Chinese sphere of influence. They have no alternative but Russia for military products. If Chinese chips are in those weapons, they will be dependent on China as well. Vietnam would then have no fantasy of ever stealing Chinese territory again.

India is already going full vassal, likely de facto restoring the Raj again. So Russia is already drawing away from them and only selling export versions.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

It would actually draw Vietnam into the Chinese sphere of influence. They have no alternative but Russia for military products. If Chinese chips are in those weapons, they will be dependent on China as well. Vietnam would then have no fantasy of ever stealing Chinese territory again.

They wouldn't be Chinese chips, they would be Russian chips fabbed on Chinese equipment if Russia bought and used the SSA800 without restrictions. If they were Chinese chips I would wholeheartedly agree with including them in weapons headed to India and Vietnam - those chips might have some unpleasant surprises in case they were ever turned against China.

India is already going full vassal, likely de facto restoring the Raj again. So Russia is already drawing away from them and only selling export versions.

Well, they have sold India the S-400, their premier air defense system.

Edit: Now that I think a little more about it, it would still be possible to slip in something nasty even if the chips were designed by Russians so long as they were using Chinese EDA tools.

 

[Topazchen]

That's all well and good as far as it goes, and I'm generally quite sympathetic to Russia. At the same time, I'm not terribly thrilled by the prospect of Chinese chip fabrication equipment being used to build components of weapons exported to the likes of India and Vietnam.

That would actually make the current American tech embargo on China right.

America doesn't want American know how to benefit the Chinese or somehow find its way to the PLA

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

They wouldn't be Chinese chips, they would be Russian chips fabbed on Chinese equipment if Russia bought and used the SSA800 without restrictions. If they were Chinese chips I would wholeheartedly agree with including them in weapons headed to India and Vietnam - those chips might have some unpleasant surprises in case they were ever turned against China.

Well, they have sold India the S-400, their premier air defense system.

Edit: Now that I think a little more about it, it would still be possible to slip in something nasty even if the chips were designed by Russians so long as they were using Chinese EDA tools.

Russia already has full independence in weapons grade chips tech because much of it is on older nodes (and cannot get too much smaller due to radiation resistance requirements).

Faster chips would mostly be useful commercially for Russia.

India paid for S-400 long ago, and Russia probably sold them the export version. Seeing how India usually uses Russian hardware (in ways you'd see on blooper reels) it's not too big of a concern. After all China has it's own chips and hardware, the chips are a very small part of a vehicular product.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

That would actually make the current American tech embargo on China right.

Who said right and wrong have anything to do with it? I find the prevailing opinion about this issue by the people who post far too often in this thread to be whiny and childish. America is China's enemy and seeks to harm it, why are the usual suspects here surprised and outraged when it imposes a tech embargo?

It's a very simple rule: might makes right. When China is strong enough to do the same (and worse) to America, I would be outraged if it didn't.

As for Russia, as I said I'm sympathetic and see a lot of utility in strengthening an ally - but China's interests must be respected and they come first.

 

[pmc]

What about Russian automotive, aerospace and heavy industries? They certainly need chips.

Yup chips are needed for everything. but i dont think Russia is going to export anything advanced to Asia built on tools bought from China that is decades away. Russia complete concentration is on Africa and Middleast after its own requirements are met.
There is R&D for 6nm processor but it still need fab to manufacture it that thing is not clear. even $20b fab is not big amount in over all context.

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[tokenanalyst]

We don't have a large electronics industry or a large internal market, so I doubt SSA800 is even needed because setting up an advanced fab would be a waste of money anyway. Russia is probably going to aim to get domestic 28 nm and stop at that, mostly for military applications. The only way I see us ever needing advanced fabs is if Elbrus and Baikal platforms become successful outside of government procurement and military which is not likely.

That is what these ignorant western analysts do not understand, the Chinese army does not need a EUV machine, they are quite independent in the manufacturing of integrated circuits, I have heard that CETC can manufacture up to 65 nm although in low volume. The chips used by the military do not need to be manufactured in the last nodes because reliability is the ultimate goal. The worst of the case is that they ignore two technological advances that China is seriously investing and that can give it a considerable military advantage. One is wide field Advanced packaging, like 3d stacking, heterogeneous integration. which would allow them to create new IC architectures with controllable physical characteristics without having to make a large investment. And the other area is new materials like silicon carbide and galium nitride. Integrated circuits made of silicon carbide can literally survive hell. None of that requires EUV or even Immersion.
In the end the only thing they got is to united Chinese companies in an effort to create an independent semiconductor industry and without significantly hurting the electronic capabilities of the Chinese army. Is blowback after blowback.

 

[caudaceus]

That is what these ignorant western analysts do not understand, the Chinese army does not need a EUV machine, they are quite independent in the manufacturing of integrated circuits, I have heard that CETC can manufacture up to 65 nm although in low volume. The chips used by the military do not need to be manufactured in the last nodes because reliability is the ultimate goal. The worst of the case is that they ignore two technological advances that China is seriously investing and that can give it a considerable military advantage. One is wide field Advanced packaging, like 3d stacking, heterogeneous integration. which would allow them to create new IC architectures with controllable physical characteristics without having to make a large investment. And the other area is new materials like silicon carbide and galium nitride. Integrated circuits made of silicon carbide can literally survive hell. None of that requires EUV or even Immersion.
In the end the only thing they got is to united Chinese companies in an effort to create an independent semiconductor industry and without significantly hurting the electronic capabilities of the Chinese army. Is blowback after blowback.

I have read a lot of claim that military doesn't require state of the art and frontier chips. However having said that with advancement of intelligentization of military, how'd they achieve it with low performance chip?