054/A FFG Thread II

Tam

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You are trying too hard to look at TVM as a form of SARH, whereas it is really a type of command guidance. The distances of the target and missile are known to the ground radar, because it tracks them both. The same for their speed. At minimum, the reflection picked up by the missile seeker is used to refine the angular resolution of the target. I can easily thinks of ways the missile could get range and speed data, but that may not even be necessary as both are known to the ground radar.

Isn't that essentially how ICWI works? Even some old radars like the AWG-9 could provide PD illumination for SARH missiles like the Sparrow or even guide the Phoenix in SARH. I think they called that the PD STT (pulse doppler single target track) mode. Actually, the AIM-7F was the last Sparrow to support both CW and PD homing. All subsequent variants supported PD mode only (ICWI). So you see, PD "illumination" is possible in multi-static configuration.

A bit more info, from the Radar Handbook by Skolnik, on how PD illumination SARH works, and why it is desirable. Also, how it compares to ARH.

Its called Track Via Missile for something and the reason why TVM exists in the first place is because Command Guidance alone can be inaccurate for terminal homing. While the distances of the target and the missile can be known by the ground radar, unfortunately there is still a variance and error, and the farther it goes, the greater it gets. That's one reason why CG is literally gone from longer ranged SAMs and still exists in some very close ranged SAMs like a Tor or a Croatale. The whole point of TVM is that the ground radar is not trusted for its data, and whether you want to refine existing data or to not trust the ground station data, its still a bistatic application. Let me remind you that the reason why you have variance and error with speed measurement in the first place is that what you would expect for medium to low PRF from the ground station against a target over long range. The higher the PRF the more accurate it gets; when you reach infinite PRF, its literally Continuous Wave.

Going back to the SPG-51. The fact that you have a monopulse CWI means the CWI can track the target on its own. In other words the C-band PD doesn't need to operate to track for the monopulse CWI which can track a target on its own (minus range information). As a matter of fact, simultaneous PC and CWI operation on the same antenna imposes quite some interference when you have both circuits in transmit and receive. The reason for having a separate PD and CWI feed is more likely because one is a C-band feed and the other is an X-band feed. The horns for each has to be sized and separated appropriately by the physical wavelength and can't be used for one or the other. If the PD and CW are both X-band, they can time share between the same feed.

P STT or PD STT For AWG 9 (F-14 radar for you folks) is PD to support actively guided Phoenix missile. If you are using Sparrows on SARH with P STT or PD STT, its really on CW and not PD. The label is retained for convenience.

As for Skolnik, the Brimstone and the RBS-15 are already real world examples that he is wrong. These are actively guided missiles that use FMCW while sharing single antenna for both transmit and receive.

ICW does not solve the isolation problem completely unfortunately and neither does high PRF PD. If the range of the reflected object exceeds the time allotted by the receive period of the current duty cycle, the echoes will fall on the next duty cycle and on the next. As such, the antenna can receive these echoes while the antenna is transmitting on the next succeeding cycles. These echoes will be regarded as ambiguous data or ambiguous range.
 

Tam

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Well, there is quite a lot of contradiction between stealth and performance, no argument here.
For supersonic missiles, compromises are simply that much larger, and achieving operationally measurable stealth performance is that much harder. On a single-use airframe, where overly expensive solutions are tricky - this is multiplied yet again.
Point is, reducing signatures(all of them) for a subsonic sea skimmer is not just doable, it plays into their strengths, comes cheap, and is absorbed pretty well by the efficiency of their air-breathing engines and lift.

Examples?

Datalinks can be picked up in principle, no doubt here, but they may be directional(as well as simply hidden behind ECM). Having your assets in the air allows these updates to be pretty hard to intercept.
Higher flying search is indeed unstealthy - and this is where modern(2010s) search algorithms and flight tame play in hand. A LRASM-like missile can simply search down low (which it is actually designed to do) - this is, assuming that there is something wrong with midcourse updates.

More like their navy is designed to perform as such - which is reasonable for their . Note, that regardless of that, parts of PLAN, PLANAF strike arm, and JASDF are specifically designed to perform no matter the situation. And, due to a change in situation - ROCAF now transforms into much more of a sea denial force, as opposed to sea control. Curious lil navy.

Examples?

Before that happened, early front aspect locks by heatseekers were made against supersonic targets: their plume "nimbus" is a good, hot target, which can really be only hidden by airframe(doesn't work well with supersonic missiles - too much to hide). Furthermore, cooling surfaces at supersonic flight at ranges important for ASCMs is very difficult, and I don't remember any examples.
Finally - all the same is true to a significant degree in radar spectrum as well - shock cones and plume reflect quite a lot. Even frontally.

Sort of. But for the 2020s, wast majority of ASCMs are subsonic - either fully or mostly(YJ-18). Only 3 navies in the world consciously embrace supersonic missiles as their primary ship-to-ship strike weapon - Russian, Indian, and now ROC navies. There is also a mixed case of Indonesia - and this is it.
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When we're talking about a weapon for a general purpose frigate of a navy aimed at equal fights (navy as a whole) - I, frankly, view the new YJ-83 as a "good enough" solution. Especially when many of its targets are actually quite small and nimble.
As for how PLAN views it - we'll see in a few years, I guess.

I don't know what you mean by 'operational strengths'. Frankly it sounds baloney to me. If stealth is tied to being subsonic, stealthy supersonic fighters won't be possible. Furthermore I can go on and say that sharper radomes, typical of supersonic fighters, along with swept back wings, the more extreme the angle, the greater is the collateral benefit in RCS reduction, even though the primary intention is to reduce drag.

The first jet fighter to exhibit low RCS qualities, like in not appearing in radar until it is close enough, was the MiG-21 during the Vietnam War. This discovery was put down by a scientist in the Soviet Union, is the first ever paper to describe the use of shaping to reduce radar reflection.

If you want examples, just compare the shape of the Oniks and the YJ-12 to things like the Harpoon, YJ-83, Tomahawk or the YJ-62.

It kind of dawns on me that you are not familiar with the idea of how shaping works to reduce RCS.

As for datalinks, if you are directional you would have to be using a phase array at least on the missile and the ground station. However, even as the missile is hit by the datalink beam, over a distance the beam is wide enough that the missile will only block a small part of the beam and the rest of the beam will extend to eternity until they get bounce back to the surface by atmospheric layers, in which case they can get picked up by something else. Even if you have a beam between A and B, if an atmospheric layer is between A and B, some of the RF might get reflected or scattered in all sorts of direction, even if most of the RF will be received by the target. Some of the communication RF can get bounced off the missile itself and becomes scatter.

I don't understand what you mean by an LRASM like missile searching down low. Searching down low with any drone or missile is straight out inefficient and requires far greater time and fuel to accomplish. Stealth is a zero factor to this.

I don't even know why you keep bringing in the LRASM in the first place, when the original premise is a conventional subsonic missile, like the YJ-83, versus a supersonic missile like the YJ-12. Or to be precise, the YJ-83 vs. the YJ-12. What's the advantage of using the YJ-83 over the YJ-12? You keep introducing the LRASM and its qualities to the YJ-83 as if the YJ-83 possesses them inherently. It does not. Not to mention that an LRASM missile is nearly twice as big as the YJ-83, and if you do so, it would require its own canister. If you want to use LRASM as a point of comparison, don't compare it to a Cold War era supersonic or a late '90s supersonic. You might as well compare it to a hypothetical supersonic missile designed in 2015 to 2020 using the latest electronics and metamaterials including composites and radar absorbent materials.

As for shock cones they are also highly angled, and if they did reflect as much as you say, then you would achieve even lower RCS since no radar wave would fall upon the fighter or the missile itself. The faster you go the more angled the cone gets. Again, the concept of directional shaping. As you get even faster the air begins to ionize and that will start absorbing radio waves on its own.
 
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Tam

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Indeed, and subsonic AShMs still require the target or its escorts to expend their limited number of missiles and munitions on defeating them, leaving less available to deal with any follow-up strike.

Range of NSM is up to 160km and the latest Moskit, which is 3M80ME2 I think, sold only for China, is about 240km. The NSM is still early in its life cycle and the Moskit is nearly at its end, the only known working examples are still the last two Sovremennys China still has left that have yet to be refitted. So yeah, somewhat smart to make that comparison. If the Moskit is updated, which means using the same fuels as available for the latest missiles, not some low energy, low octane fuel from the Soviet era, the range would have been greater, much greater, possibly even compared to the YJ-12.

Point remains that with certain ships, such as having a VLS, or with planes having the same hardpoints, you have the same amount of subsonics to supersonics. An H-6 will carry the same number of YJ-83s as it does with YJ-12s in its practical configuration, that involves two ECM pods on the outer pylons. A 054A can carry 8 YJ-12s no differently from 8 YJ-83s. If I have a VLS to carry 8 large antiship missiles, it will only carry 8 small antiship missiles. There is also another limitation to the number of missiles a platform can support and that is one is not something tangible or visible; that which is an electronic one, such as the number of radio channels available or the missiles the combat data system can support. If your ship can support 16 datalink connections for missiles, it won't matter if those missiles are big or small, fast or small, you can only support 16.
 
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nlalyst

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Registered Member
Range of NSM is up to 160km and the latest Moskit, which is 3M80ME2 I think, sold only for China, is about 240km. The NSM is still early in its life cycle and the Moskit is nearly at its end, the only known working examples are still the last two Sovremennys China still has left that have yet to be refitted. So yeah, somewhat smart to make that comparison. If the Moskit is updated, which means using the same fuels as available for the latest missiles, not some low energy, low octane fuel from the Soviet era, the range would have been greater, much greater, possibly even compared to the YJ-12.
Come on, get your facts straight. NSM has a range greater than 100 nm, per Ratyheon and Konsberg:
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Furthermore, the 240km for Moskit is only when it flies at high altitude, whereas the NSM is a sea-skimmer. When sea-skimming, the latest Moskit has a range of only 140 km. I was actually quite generous here. That's less range for over 11 times in weight.

You want to compare against YJ-12? I have a figure of 400 km for an air launched YJ-12 flying at high altitude. The air launched variant of NSM is the JSM. According to Konsberg, range at high, high, low is over 300 nm. Let's be conservative and take 300nm=555 km. YJ-12 mass is 3000 kg. JSM mass is 400kg. That's 7.5 times the weight for just 72% the range.
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The last part of your paragraph is again typical you who starts making up things to support an already weak argument. Low octane fuel? Really? I was going to ask for a source, but you never provided one when I asked before ...

Let's review some basic physics. The drag formula in air:

F = 0.5*p*V^2 * Cd * A,
where p is density of air, V is velocity, Cd is coefficient of drag, and A is sectional area.

That's velocity squared. Just by dropping from Mach 3 to Mach 0.8 the drag force decreases by 14 times. That's pretty much the gist of the whole subsonic vs supersonic cruise trade-off.
 
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ougoah

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Why are we comparing YJ-83 and YJ-12 with NSM and LRASM?

Something like the LRASM would definitely be useful for China but it would need the H-20 or a dedicated bomber to carry those. I think coordinating swarms wouldn't be too challenging but it's a platform that China supposedly has not looked into developing yet simply because there are no B-1 or Tu-22 equivalents that can be used to carry them in the numbers needed.

NSM strikes me as sort of a modern YJ-83. Conventional, sea-skimming, subsonic cruise missile. It has okay range but a type of weapon that China honestly shouldn't be too interested in developing i.e. a modern equivalent of YJ-83. For the USN, it would have minimal effectiveness unless it plays some attrition role in depleting USN interceptor missiles. For lower capability threats, YJ-83s are enough.

YJ-12 for speed, YJ-18 for range and speed. Both perform maneuvers in attempts to defeat CIWS. For higher tier anti-shipping, AShBM and hypersonic weapons. LRASM or something with similar range but sea skimming and stealthy, would be filling a gap but there are no platforms available to carry something like them yet.
 

W20

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"Why are we comparing YJ-83 and YJ-12 with NSM and LRASM?"

Because there is a mixture of points of view: the West develop a weapon that impresses and, then, it is thought that China should also have it

But in the evolution of armament, it is necessary to take into account (1) the past, since we are not starting from scratch (2) the function we are looking for and (3) the future path we intend to follow

Honestly, in most discussions I don't know what is being discussed
 

nlalyst

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In the debate of subsonics vs supersonics, I don’t think either are inherently better than the other. Subsonics provide vastly greater range for the same weight. Supersonics provide superior time to target and a theoretically higher chance of evading ship borne defenses. Although, that’s only if they aren’t detected cruising at 20+ km and engaged by long range SAMs.

As for PLAN vs USN, the comparison cannot be easily made since the the two navies have different ASuW doctrines. Currently, the USN emphasizes aerial platforms for anti-shipping. Its ships are comparatively much worse armed than PLAN’s. Because of the emphasis on aerial platforms, they invested in smaller missiles that can be carried by fighters. The aerial launch platform provides range extension, while the missiles offer attack possibility at stand off range.

While subsonics may be an easier target for the defense on an individual case, when carried by air platforms, they can saturate the enemy with up to 10 times as many missiles compared to equivalent range supersonics. Such swarming may be enough to deplete defense missile cells or overwhelm the available defensive firepower.
 
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ougoah

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"Why are we comparing YJ-83 and YJ-12 with NSM and LRASM?"

Because there is a mixture of points of view: the West develop a weapon that impresses and, then, it is thought that China should also have it

But in the evolution of armament, it is necessary to take into account (1) the past, since we are not starting from scratch (2) the function we are looking for and (3) the future path we intend to follow

Honestly, in most discussions I don't know what is being discussed

Each develop weapons to suit their needs, their anticipation of likely conflicts, their doctrines orbat etc, their industrial capabilities and so on.

The West developed NSM and LRASM (and their variants) like China developed AShBMs which the west didn't develop owing to the kinds of wars each expect and the goals each have.

On impressiveness, well the NSM isn't impressive. Not even slightly for this age. It's surely a good weapon but it's not groundbreaking in range (about the same range as YJ-83 of last generation), it's stealthy okay cool but that's not hard to do these days if the desire is there. It's not got any amazing properties either. If we assume it has, then we can assume every confidential modern weapon has some amazing property kept in secret. China and Russia's scientific abilities are not really less than the West these days.

If you ask me, the LRASM also isn't prohibitively difficult to do. For China, stealth isn't a problem, cost isn't a problem either although it seems to want both high cost and high capability low volume weapons like AShBM and attrition weapons like rockets. Propulsion, guidance, wings, aerodynamics etc none of those are even remotely difficult for China. It hasn't developed one because it doesn't yet have a viable carrier for those missiles. It also already has YJ-12, YJ-18, KD-63, YJ-83, YJ-82, Moskit, YJ-91, YJ-62. All of these can perform anti-ship (anti-radiation I'm counting). They each have multiple variants, and various launch methods - ship, land, air, submarine launched etc. That's a lot of stuff to maintain and use up.

On the mainstay anti-shipping, YJ-83, YJ-62, YJ-12, and YJ-18 make up the core missile platforms. They aren't limited to being ship or land launched. On the high end, you have HGVs, AShBM, and air launched ballistic missiles which may overlap with HGVs (being the same things on occasion) and assuming there are any that can be used for anti-shipping. No available aircraft can carry something like LRASM in numbers. Maybe H-20 or JH-xx can give them the desired payload volume and speed but even if such platforms are available, there is doubt it would be necessary considering USN abilities. A Chinese LRASM would require an interceptor just like a cheap and plentiful KD-63 would.

I feel most of China's more capable mainstay anti-ship weapons (YJ-12 and YJ-18) are still considering attrition and cost. LRASM would cost more and take up no less room and weight. So do you want speed or do you want stealth. With the YJ combo, China has both speed and range but not stealth. Stealth would be the most expensive out of the three qualities to develop a weapon for. Perhaps new generations of Chinese anti-ship missiles will try to incorporate stealth as a more high end platform due to costs. But China will definitely keep non-stealthy conventional anti ship missiles around as the main force unless costs for stealthy ones can be acceptable somehow.
 

W20

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JH-7 with four subsonic missile can strike a Frigate or a Destroyer

JH-XX ... I imagine that maybe will launch a missile that will fly at very high speed through 40-100 km altitude zone and plummet from 30,000 meters altitude doing evasive maneuvers to pass through the deck of an aircraft Carrier

I mean that in my opinion perhaps China will develop a very long range subsonic anti-ship missile for example to be launched by the Destroyer 055 and it could even be that such a weapon already exists: a very long range subsonic anti-ship missile. But I think that's not the crucial or interesting point of this movie.

I do not see the JH-xx launching a subsonic anti-ship missile

The anti-ship missiles of a Frigate or Destroyer are for attacking similar vessels

And the probability of a ship vs. ship confrontation between large Fleets is very low. Submarine vs. ship and aircraft vs. ship is more realistic

And effectively a B-1 taking off from far away and launching tons and tons of long-range subsonic anti-ship missiles ... is what's left of ... the US ... Navy

China's obsession was to keep the US Carriers away, and we can say that it has succeeded

CH-AS-X-13 (?)
DF-26 (!)
DF-21
DF-100 (!?)
YJ-12B

I mean that the issue has shifted from attacking China, which is now (ca. 2020) impossible, to attacking the Fleet, which is another matter
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
On impressiveness, well the NSM isn't impressive. Not even slightly for this age. It's surely a good weapon but it's not groundbreaking in range (about the same range as YJ-83 of last generation)
The NSM weighs half as much as the latest YJ-83 variants and has superior range. The air launched variant of YJ-83, with a claimed range of 230 km fares even worse versus JSM (air-launched variant of NSM) and its range of 555+ km. That's half the weight for over twice the range in favor of JSM.

I feel most of China's more capable mainstay anti-ship weapons (YJ-12 and YJ-18) are still considering attrition and cost. LRASM would cost more and take up no less room and weight.
LRASM is 1/3 the weight of YJ-12 and has over twice the range. That's quite a significant difference for an air-launched missile.
 
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