Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Well chinese SAM development isen't results of some glory espionage actions but a handicaped country by industrial capacitys effors to create one of their own. It is was one would assume, a lenghty and propelmatic venture. The first SAM system for PLAN, the HQ-61 took decades to get operational and it was completely outdated to comparing systems even when the development started.

As time passed on chinese where able to obtain foreing SAM systems, the Aspide and Crotale which emerged as LY-60 and HQ-7 which both were availble (tough only the HQ-7 was adopted) before the HQ-61 was in full service. As you may quess the servicelife of HQ-61 was quite short.
In the 90's chinese were able to increase their SAM quantity with top-of-the noch russian systems which both (S-300 and Buk) were adopted in service as such and both influenced new chinese developments like HQ-9 and HQ-16.

Nonetheless, the technology has been absorbed and can now be domestically manufactured and improved upon. HQ-9 looks a bit like the Shtil or 5V55 with long body rail like fins, but then so are a number of missiles including the RIM-66. However the radar set of the HQ-9 looks closer to the MPQ-53 used in the PAC, and has a detection to kill capability all in one unit, unlike the S-300PMU1/2.

Now that's a huge leap in both radar technology and as well as the quality of it. A set like the MPQ-53 has multiple arrays in one panel. In order to do that, without interference from each other, the arrays must have ultra low sidelobs or sidelob cancellation, something the Russians themselves could not achieve with their own units until this decade. Hence the Russians never fielded similar all in one units.


Even the chinese crown jewl, the APAR radar is rumoured based on the soviet program which was continued by the Kvant NPO in ukraine where it was left after the dissolution of USSR.

This rumor has been blown completely out of the water. Ukraine has admitted that the Kvant was only shipped after 2004 for evaluation, and already at that time, the 052C were undergoing trials in the water. The Kvant is only a search radar, and lacks fire control capabilities.
 

szbd

Junior Member
Thanks crobato. I though you mean AShW missile can detect objects over horizon by itself.

About Atago. First, it's hell of a ship. One Atago is better in AAW and ASW than 2 Chinese new destoyers (2 from 6, whatever the combination). Even if when Vayag is ready, Atago will have SM3 and will be capable of protecting its fleet from a strike of 20 Su33s.

This is the route I think China should follow. It's actually a cruiser. The good thing about cruiser (or simply big ship) is more weaponary under the control of a powerful combat system. But we don't need anti ballistic missile ability.

However we are not in an arm race after all. I think the top priority now should be build and organize a blue water fleet that can be constantly deployed in high sea.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
For me, air power still rules, especially if the air strike comes with a combination of ARM/SEAD/DEAD measures in combination with AshM attack. If one thinks you can avoid ARM attack going EMCON, I wonder how one is going to defend themselves against AshM.

ARMs are very difficult to defend against, even with anti missiles. Compared to AshM, they are much faster, being supersonic right up to Mach 4. Compared to supersonic AshM, they're much smaller, and therefore a smaller RCS. And they're passive, so you won't get warned in time. They won't be sinking a ship, but they will be striking at your radar. Even if you do manage to intercept one, that's one less SAM you can use to defend the next wave of attack which will come in low using AshM.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Its not the range that matters. Everytime you have surface SAM vs. aircraft, the SAMs lose. They never win. They can kill aircraft but stop missions? No. Relying on a defensive strategy never wins.

The strategy and the doctrine that commands the offensive, the initiative is what always wins. They have the speed, the range, the numbers, the ability to dictate when and where is the attack, and most of all the force concentration. A static strategy is one that never wins. Does not matter if you have superior training, superior armor, superior shield, superior sword, superior tradition, the guy who first mugs the other in the head wins.

Anti missile defense is like running dice. You got 20 missiles aimed at you, and you roll the dice. One after another for each missile, until one rolls not in favor of you. Then things break down quickly at this point.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
To Crobato:

The question isen't about the orgins of the missiles, but the time and volume of naval SAMs being intergrated to upons fleet. JMSDF have operated SAM fitted ships with fleet defence ability (relative due its era) since the sixties and PLAN has just strated to field them. Its a factor that cannot be ignored if you try to determine either fleets capacity. When intorducing completely new weaponsystem, or more properly a branch to your fleet, it takes long, over decade at least to get fully familiar to that system and being able to use its full potential.

As for the Kvant, I havne't heard these news of yours, but like I said the orginal info was a rumour nothing more. May I ask where is said about the Ukrainian "admitting"?
 

beijingcar

New Member
To Crobato:

The question isen't about the orgins of the missiles, but the time and volume of naval SAMs being intergrated to upons fleet. JMSDF have operated SAM fitted ships with fleet defence ability (relative due its era) since the sixties and PLAN has just strated to field them. Its a factor that cannot be ignored if you try to determine either fleets capacity. When intorducing completely new weaponsystem, or more properly a branch to your fleet, it takes long, over decade at least to get fully familiar to that system and being able to use its full potential.

As for the Kvant, I havne't heard these news of yours, but like I said the orginal info was a rumour nothing more. May I ask where is said about the Ukrainian "admitting"?

PLAN has got shipborn SSM's since the early 1970s ( IOC in 1974 ), shore based SSM's even before that, in the 1969 timeframe, land based SAMs since 1957, well before Japanese military got their SAMs. What I am saying it that China pays a lot attention to SAM and SSM tech since very early on ( because of the threat of U-2 overflies and U.S 7th fleet). You are right, shipborn SAM was not put on PLAN ships till late 1980s, and that was not a good SAM, too shrot ranged, too few in #, too old control and target radar. That is the reason the PLAN only fielded it on two ships. On one hand, You are right, that all these new toys in the PLAN need time to work out and be fully operational. Comapre to the Japanese Navy, their navy have the U.S as a teacher and give them the op manual, things can go much faster for their learning curve. If I am the Chief of the PLAN, #1 thing to do is training. On the other hand, There are certain things that PLAN can leap fog over, 1960s till 1980s SAMs on those NATO ( Japan) naval ships are nothing to write home about, so yes, experience in operating SAMs on ships do count, but not as much as how well you know how to run the current system.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
To Crobato:

The question isen't about the orgins of the missiles, but the time and volume of naval SAMs being intergrated to upons fleet. JMSDF have operated SAM fitted ships with fleet defence ability (relative due its era) since the sixties and PLAN has just strated to field them. Its a factor that cannot be ignored if you try to determine either fleets capacity. When intorducing completely new weaponsystem, or more properly a branch to your fleet, it takes long, over decade at least to get fully familiar to that system and being able to use its full potential.

LOL. This logic does not make sense. The British and the French were building and using tanks longer than the Americans, Germans and the Russians prior to WWII, but guess who actually came out ahead in using them.

If it is taking you a very long time to be fully familiar with the system and use it to its full potential, then its the system that is wrong in the first place.

And compared to Japan in the last forty years or so, China did use SAMs in anger, to actually shoot down aircraft in a hostile manner. The last incident and reported kill was in 1987 against a Vietnamese MiG-21. It had advisers and observers in Vietnam during the war, including during the Linebacker raids. The Chinese actually had direct experience in the use of ECM and counter ECCM, thanks to CIA and ROCAF recon flights that often use ECM against PRC SAM batteries, not to mention what the Soviets were trying to do on their side of the borders. The result of that experience is the Chinese learned to modify their own missiles to be ECM resistant, as well as modifying their SAMs so what the Soviets knew about the SA-2 Guidelines won't apply on the HQ-2.


As for the Kvant, I havne't heard these news of yours, but like I said the orginal info was a rumour nothing more. May I ask where is said about the Ukrainian "admitting"?

You should check sinodefence in the first place. And besides, if you checked the history of the kvant, it was not ready in a developed manner for sale prior to any period before experimental ship 870 took that array into testing prior 2002.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Logig doesen't make sense?

So you disagree that a navy that has fielded SAMs in its warships since the 60's hasen't got any benefits over navy that has operated them since mid 90's and still having almoust 50% of its major surface combatants lacking them completely? You are saying that decades of familirazing with some weapon branch is irrelevant to pass on the right and proper training and operational doctrines? If these fundamental things are unclear to you and seems illogical, who is to blame? Me or you?

Your tank comparison is weak as all of those major powers that you mentioned fielded their first tanks in the same period and for example Tsarist Russia was developing tanks right from the same point as British, they just didn't managed to fininsh any ideas. If you wish to put JMSDF and PLAN to that same frame, Imagine JMSDF being The soviet union, familiar with tanks since the wwI era and PLAN would been, well china with first ever tanks arriving just in the outbreake of WWII and those tanks being the technological level of the very early Renault's...

But in general its irrelevant to say that chinese has operated SAMs in general earlier to Japan, it has nothing to do with the navy. Chinese expereince in SAM systems in land is quite useless beyond few general concepts of shooting planes out of the sky as A those missiles, HQ-2 notably is completely different than any of the SAMs fielded by PLAN, and B the operative enviroment is copletely different and thus is the role of the weapon system.

Its useless and plain silly to throw arguments that has nbothing to do with the actual issue and thus you are harming the actual discussion. THe subject was JMSDF capacity and how is it compared to PLAN. Chinese land forces or air forces actions has nothing to do with it.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Logig doesen't make sense?

So you disagree that a navy that has fielded SAMs in its warships since the 60's hasen't got any benefits over navy that has operated them since mid 90's and still having almoust 50% of its major surface combatants lacking them completely? You are saying that decades of familirazing with some weapon branch is irrelevant to pass on the right and proper training and operational doctrines? If these fundamental things are unclear to you and seems illogical, who is to blame? Me or you?

If the other navy decided to field SAMs in the last two years or so, then I would say, you have an argument.

But if it was like 10 years? I say no.


Your tank comparison is weak as all of those major powers that you mentioned fielded their first tanks in the same period and for example Tsarist Russia was developing tanks right from the same point as British, they just didn't managed to fininsh any ideas.

The Germans were not allowed to field tanks at all. That is like what---two decades before they started to make tanks again. While the French and the British had two continous decades of fielding tanks. The experience the Germans had fielding captured British tanks in WWI does not count.

The Germans had only five freaking years from receiving their first Panzer Mk. 1---a light training tank---when they initiated Blitzkrieg.

If you wish to put JMSDF and PLAN to that same frame, Imagine JMSDF being The soviet union, familiar with tanks since the wwI era and PLAN would been, well china with first ever tanks arriving just in the outbreake of WWII and those tanks being the technological level of the very early Renault's...

How is that different from Germany in 1939? The Panzer Mk 1s and IIs were critically inferior against the best British, French and even Russian tanks like the Matildas, the Char and the KT-1s. Nor were they even a match against the Czech tanks. The best German tank was the Panzer Mk III, whose 37mm was seriously outgunned, and was few, as well the Panzer Mk. IV, which was even fewer, but more critically had a 75mm gun with a very short barrel that was totally useless against other tanks. The Mark IV was merely used for infantry support.

Compared to the PLAN, the Wehrmacht actually had it worst. If it was the PLAN, those tanks would have guns outranging the Allies.

But in general its irrelevant to say that chinese has operated SAMs in general earlier to Japan, it has nothing to do with the navy. Chinese expereince in SAM systems in land is quite useless beyond few general concepts of shooting planes out of the sky as A those missiles, HQ-2 notably is completely different than any of the SAMs fielded by PLAN, and B the operative enviroment is copletely different and thus is the role of the weapon system.

Sorry to say this, but operating SAMs whether its sea or ground is still operating SAMs, and share practically very similar methods and tactics.

The Chinese experience in SAMs actually amount to shooting down something, as well as foreign power actually using electronic warfare against these units.

The HQ-2 is not completely different from any of the SAMs fielded by the PLAN, certainly not in its operating principles---command guided or semi active homing.

Its useless and plain silly to throw arguments that has nbothing to do with the actual issue and thus you are harming the actual discussion. THe subject was JMSDF capacity and how is it compared to PLAN. Chinese land forces or air forces actions has nothing to do with it.

I think what you're trying to suggest that PLAN does not know how to use a SAM after only 10 years (actually more like 15 years).

What counts is whether you have enough for your own. When a certain point passes, it does not matter one bit if you have fifteen, 50 or 150 years of experience operating that system. None of that would make it better.

How long did the PLAAF had the experience of using the SA-2 before they were actually shooting down U-2s?
 
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