Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

Status
Not open for further replies.

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes. That's why I pointed out that he was not making an apples to apples comparison.

It's near impossible that ASML or Nikon ArF immersion systems would be eclipsed end of this year. Even just matching them for resolution is but a small part of the performance equation.
If you had been following this thread you would have come across numerous articles quoted about the SMEE 28nm DUV machine due in December. I also quoted an article which said SMEE developed a 22nm machine in April this year.
In any case ASML stopped developing improved versions of their DUV machine many years ago which explains this so called hard limit of 38nm on DUV Immersion tech.
As for spec sheets this will have to wait unfortunately closer to the launch date of the machine.
SMEE does not provide much information on their website either which is not helpful.
Resolution on the DUV machine can be improved by using new immersion techniques & materials as well as improving the projection lens.
Changchun Institute & SMEE have been working on these aspects while much of the world have moved on to EUV development.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
@tidalwave

What do you think of this:

SMIC unlikely to replace TSMC amid Huawei ban
Monica Chen, Taipei; Jessie Shen, DIGITIMES
Tuesday 19 May 2020


Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC) is highly unlikely to replace TSMC as the major foundry partner of Huawei even if TSMC stops shipping to the China-based client due to unresolved US-China trade tensions, according to market observers.
Huawei will need its main foundry partner to make the most advanced chips to support its innovation, and TSMC's technology leadership has been attracting crucial orders from Huawei's chipmaking arm HiSilicon, the observers said.

However, the tighter US trade sanctions on Huawei reportedly has forced TSMC to stop taking new orders from Huawei. While SMIC is being identified as the largest beneficiary of Huawei enhancing ties with China-based foundries, some observers believe that SMIC is unlikely to see Huawei give it all of its advanced-node chip orders, as there is considerable technology gap between the two foundry houses.

SMIC has just moved its most-advanced 14nm FinFET process to commercial production. The node accounted for only 1.3% of SMIC's total wafer sales in the first quarter of 2020. TSMC, on the other hand, has already kicked off volume production of chips using 7nm and 5nm EUV process technology for HiSilicon, the observers noted.

The tighter export restrictions are also set to have an adverse impact on SMIC's advanced process development, according to industry sources. Like TSMC, SMIC's production relies considerably on US fab tools as well as silicon wafer materials, the sources said.
According to the latest restrictions imposed by the US government, the sources continued, Huawei will not be allowed to procure chips concerning US technology starting August 13. For TSMC, chips produced for Huawei after September 12 will have to be restricted and require special permission from the US government, the sources said.
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
@tidalwave

What do you think of this:

SMIC unlikely to replace TSMC amid Huawei ban
Monica Chen, Taipei; Jessie Shen, DIGITIMES
Tuesday 19 May 2020


Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC) is highly unlikely to replace TSMC as the major foundry partner of Huawei even if TSMC stops shipping to the China-based client due to unresolved US-China trade tensions, according to market observers.
Huawei will need its main foundry partner to make the most advanced chips to support its innovation, and TSMC's technology leadership has been attracting crucial orders from Huawei's chipmaking arm HiSilicon, the observers said.

However, the tighter US trade sanctions on Huawei reportedly has forced TSMC to stop taking new orders from Huawei. While SMIC is being identified as the largest beneficiary of Huawei enhancing ties with China-based foundries, some observers believe that SMIC is unlikely to see Huawei give it all of its advanced-node chip orders, as there is considerable technology gap between the two foundry houses.

SMIC has just moved its most-advanced 14nm FinFET process to commercial production. The node accounted for only 1.3% of SMIC's total wafer sales in the first quarter of 2020. TSMC, on the other hand, has already kicked off volume production of chips using 7nm and 5nm EUV process technology for HiSilicon, the observers noted.

The tighter export restrictions are also set to have an adverse impact on SMIC's advanced process development, according to industry sources. Like TSMC, SMIC's production relies considerably on US fab tools as well as silicon wafer materials, the sources said.
According to the latest restrictions imposed by the US government, the sources continued, Huawei will not be allowed to procure chips concerning US technology starting August 13. For TSMC, chips produced for Huawei after September 12 will have to be restricted and require special permission from the US government, the sources said.
China is finished. What US was able to do was get Taiwan to onshore its TSMC to America, so that even if a confrontation in the South China Sea ends up with losing Taiwan the US will still have home-grown EUV microprocessor capabilities whilst banning China from access to these chips, to the machines that produce the chips (ASML) and the entire supply chain surrounding all of this (German Carl Zeiss etc)... Make no mistake, this ban is not limited to just Huawei, infact I have on good authority that SMIC is next, and a total blanket ban of all processors to China soon to follow after that. SMIC won't be able to catch up in time, and Huawei's entire 5G base station chips were designed for 7nm process, meaning not only does this kill Huawei's bread and butter of being able to export 5G (70 contacts signed worldwide) thus giving that business to US /Western companies but in fact it will even make it impossible for China to complete the rollout of its own domestic 5G market, meaning China will have to use American 5G (TSMC is being set up in Arizona with plans to buy Greenland for the rare earth minerials and hostile takeover of Nokia and Ericcson to forced transfer 5G to USA not to mention Marco Rubio's bill to invalidate Huawei 5G patents paving way for Verizon/AT&T to steal them for free etc) or none at all, and during a time of war when US decides to attack China mainland coast after first taking the SCS or Taiwan, it can flip a switch and basically eletronically shutdown all of China to cut off the Chinese C&C and cause mass chaos and panic throughout the mainland.
 

Pkp88

Junior Member
Registered Member
Following this topic is pretty frustrating. There’s no public progress on building a non-US chip fab which is very doable (given Korean, Japanese tech) or on building a domestic lithography machine that even gets near 7nm. So much hype about SMIC - but they spent all that effort and ended up buying tons of AMAT, LAM gear. Reading about Chinese tech is rather depressing it’s just a bunch of stuff that goes to zero the minute Huawei type restrictions are applied.
 

z117

New Member
@tidalwave
SMIC unlikely to replace TSMC amid Huawei ban

So what is China suppose to do? Give up? The millions of people (not just the government) who's careers and livelihoods that depend on an industry simply.... do what? Find a new job to do? What alternatives are they offering China? It just looks like they want China's back against the wall but at the same time can't make a killing blow. It doesn't leave China with any options but to decouple and go their own way. Yes, it sets them back but that's the hand they are dealt. It's truly baffling to me what the Americans are doing.
 

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
Registered Member
China is finished. What US was able to do was get Taiwan to onshore its TSMC to America, so that even if a confrontation in the South China Sea ends up with losing Taiwan the US will still have home-grown EUV microprocessor capabilities whilst banning China from access to these chips, to the machines that produce the chips (ASML) and the entire supply chain surrounding all of this (German Carl Zeiss etc)... Make no mistake, this ban is not limited to just Huawei, infact I have on good authority that SMIC is next, and a total blanket ban of all processors to China soon to follow after that. SMIC won't be able to catch up in time, and Huawei's entire 5G base station chips were designed for 7nm process, meaning not only does this kill Huawei's bread and butter of being able to export 5G (70 contacts signed worldwide) thus giving that business to US /Western companies but in fact it will even make it impossible for China to complete the rollout of its own domestic 5G market, meaning China will have to use American 5G (TSMC is being set up in Arizona with plans to buy Greenland for the rare earth minerials and hostile takeover of Nokia and Ericcson to forced transfer 5G to USA not to mention Marco Rubio's bill to invalidate Huawei 5G patents paving way for Verizon/AT&T to steal them for free etc) or none at all, and during a time of war when US decides to attack China mainland coast after first taking the SCS or Taiwan, it can flip a switch and basically eletronically shutdown all of China to cut off the Chinese C&C and cause mass chaos and panic throughout the mainland.


Lel, the world in the middle of the US shitting its guts out over coronavirus, and somehow it is China that is finished?

I do agree however that there has been too much passivity on the part of the gov. For all the allegations that China steals IP, it has apparently not gotten much in semiconductors?
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lel, the world in the middle of the US shitting its guts out over coronavirus, and somehow it is China that is finished?

I do agree however that there has been too much passivity on the part of the gov. For all the allegations that China steals IP, it has apparently not gotten much in semiconductors?



China is finished...

In the battle between hegemonic systems it seems America has won...

What US was able to do last week was get Taiwan to on-shore its TSMC factory to America, so that even if a confrontation in the South China Sea ends up with losing Taiwan the US will still have home-grown EUV microprocessor capabilities whilst banning China from access to these chips, including the machines that produce the chips (ASML) and the entire supply chain surrounding all of this (German Carl Zeiss etc)...

By lowering the De minimis U.S. content rule from 25% to 10% and now down to 1%/zero percent, China won’t be able to source chips anywhere, even from non-US firms, and they will have hard time to even source the machines that build the machines that build the chips, as any supplier that has even 1% US content won’t be allowed to export to China to help China build a homegrown processor/fab capabilities... The intent of this is to throw China back into the stone age. Make no mistake, this is the America cutting off Japan from oil moment we just witnessed... Did you guys know China actually spends more money importing computer chips than it does oil? This is how critical processors are to China.

Make no mistake, this ban is not limited to just Huawei, infact I have on good authority that SMIC (Chinese mainland version of TSMC that is years behind) is next, and a total blanket ban of all processors to China soon to follow after that. SMIC won't be able to catch up in time, and Huawei's entire 5G base station chips were designed for 7nm process, meaning not only does this kill Huawei's bread and butter of being able to export 5G (70 contacts signed worldwide) thus giving that business to US /Western companies but in fact it will even make it impossible for China to complete the rollout of its own domestic 5G market, meaning China will have to use American 5G (TSMC is being set up in Arizona with plans to buy Greenland for the rare earth minerals to get ahead of China using the rare earth card etc and Trump plans to buy Nokia and Ericcson to transfer 5G tech to USA not to mention Marco bill to invalidate Huawei 5G patents paving way for Verizon/AT&T to use them freely etc) or none at all, and during a time of war when US decides to attack China mainland coast after first taking the SCS or Taiwan, it can flip a switch and basically electronically shutdown all of China to cut off the Chinese C&C and cause mass chaos and panic throughout the mainland.

Without the ability to climb the tech ascension chain ("Made in China 2025") this will cause China to be stuck in the so called Middle Income Trap... it is almost impossible to do this if China cannot find a workaround to the bans which deprive it of access to state of the art fabs /chip making processes etc. How can China continue to expect to be world's factory if it is denied microprocessors? How can China climb the tech ascension if its 5G/ AI and other dreams are dashed due to not having the access to chips?

On the other hand, if AI pans out and in the future US can have fully automated factories that need no human labor, then no longer is the need to outsource to cheaper places like India, Mexico, China, etc because nothing is cheaper than AI which runs on electricity costs for labor... Globalization could be going in reverse in that sense and automation will mean supply chains returning local again.

The biggest issue is that of peak global resources , be it peak oil, peak minerals, peak fresh water, peak top soil. So in that perspective the world really is a zero sum game and Chinese rising standards of living in aggregate means less piece of the pie for everyone else, including Americans. If the end goal is to shutdown China (crater its GDP) then that would be bigger pieces of the pie for the rest of the world, and that would directly and proportionately benefit the US by far the most in terms of rising standards of living. The real wages in the US haven't risen since the 1970's...a good part of it is due to China's rise in standards of living taking ever larger slices of the pie. So this could be what Trump meant when he said he was going to MAGA

No matter what happens, Trump just dropped the hammer on China and this is the inflection point of the second cold war and so far America seems to have the clear advantage / leverage.

Tidalwave is wrong about one thing, he keeps talking about in terms of what makes economic sense, that 5nm is not economically viable without Chinese market... but politics trumps economics.. especially when America is using this as weapon to contain and erase China and US still has the luxury of the petrodollar hegemony and USD as global reserve currency affording it to print its way out of this issue and making the rest of the world pay for the decoupling.

Fusion is still 40 years away from real application, oil is running out, climate change is real, we have past peak resource globally and population overshoot is a real thing...

The only way Americans can sustain their non-negotiable way of life is to start harvesting China in a sort of Plaza Accord 2.0; but since "trade talks" broke down last year and Xi/CCP made it clear that China wasn't going to let itself be colonized/harvested by the West then the US had no choice but one choice left, to completely crater China GDP by cutting it off from computer chips....

In the long run if US can regain tech preeminence and full spectrum dominance it can become a leader in AI, and if it wins AI and 5G/6G and gets in front, (no matter what tactics it uses) then it won't even need China anymore for manufacturing at all!

Very few people can see what I see, the big picture, we live in a post-peak resource world, and so its not only zero sum, its ever shrinking slices of the pie! Red queen race! US has to run faster and faster just to stay in place, it was storing China up like a piggybank counting on harvesting China by now but the Chinese did not play ball and so the only way is for US to start manufacturing itself locally using AI and automation whilst crashing Chinese GDP now that China is useless to America and just another 1.4 billion extra mouths to consume ever dwindling global resources!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Hard to say what will happen. The scenario is unpredictable.

I suspect Huawei can negotiate a deal where it will be allowed to operate if it buys Intel chips for everything 5g. Basically, abandon Huawei chip design teams.


Looking at China's 2017 imports from the US:

1589947788278.png



There isn't much that China buys from US that can be blocked. It also makes no sense to block exports to the US.

Chinese people spend their money wisely.
 
Last edited:

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
Registered Member
China is finished...

In the battle between hegemonic systems it seems America has won...

What US was able to do last week was get Taiwan to on-shore its TSMC factory to America, so that even if a confrontation in the South China Sea ends up with losing Taiwan the US will still have home-grown EUV microprocessor capabilities whilst banning China from access to these chips, including the machines that produce the chips (ASML) and the entire supply chain surrounding all of this (German Carl Zeiss etc)...

By lowering the De minimis U.S. content rule from 25% to 10% and now down to 1%/zero percent, China won’t be able to source chips anywhere, even from non-US firms, and they will have hard time to even source the machines that build the machines that build the chips, as any supplier that has even 1% US content won’t be allowed to export to China to help China build a homegrown processor/fab capabilities... The intent of this is to throw China back into the stone age. Make no mistake, this is the America cutting off Japan from oil moment we just witnessed... Did you guys know China actually spends more money importing computer chips than it does oil? This is how critical processors are to China.

Make no mistake, this ban is not limited to just Huawei, infact I have on good authority that SMIC (Chinese mainland version of TSMC that is years behind) is next, and a total blanket ban of all processors to China soon to follow after that. SMIC won't be able to catch up in time, and Huawei's entire 5G base station chips were designed for 7nm process, meaning not only does this kill Huawei's bread and butter of being able to export 5G (70 contacts signed worldwide) thus giving that business to US /Western companies but in fact it will even make it impossible for China to complete the rollout of its own domestic 5G market, meaning China will have to use American 5G (TSMC is being set up in Arizona with plans to buy Greenland for the rare earth minerals to get ahead of China using the rare earth card etc and Trump plans to buy Nokia and Ericcson to transfer 5G tech to USA not to mention Marco bill to invalidate Huawei 5G patents paving way for Verizon/AT&T to use them freely etc) or none at all, and during a time of war when US decides to attack China mainland coast after first taking the SCS or Taiwan, it can flip a switch and basically electronically shutdown all of China to cut off the Chinese C&C and cause mass chaos and panic throughout the mainland.

Without the ability to climb the tech ascension chain ("Made in China 2025") this will cause China to be stuck in the so called Middle Income Trap... it is almost impossible to do this if China cannot find a workaround to the bans which deprive it of access to state of the art fabs /chip making processes etc. How can China continue to expect to be world's factory if it is denied microprocessors? How can China climb the tech ascension if its 5G/ AI and other dreams are dashed due to not having the access to chips?

On the other hand, if AI pans out and in the future US can have fully automated factories that need no human labor, then no longer is the need to outsource to cheaper places like India, Mexico, China, etc because nothing is cheaper than AI which runs on electricity costs for labor... Globalization could be going in reverse in that sense and automation will mean supply chains returning local again.

The biggest issue is that of peak global resources , be it peak oil, peak minerals, peak fresh water, peak top soil. So in that perspective the world really is a zero sum game and Chinese rising standards of living in aggregate means less piece of the pie for everyone else, including Americans. If the end goal is to shutdown China (crater its GDP) then that would be bigger pieces of the pie for the rest of the world, and that would directly and proportionately benefit the US by far the most in terms of rising standards of living. The real wages in the US haven't risen since the 1970's...a good part of it is due to China's rise in standards of living taking ever larger slices of the pie. So this could be what Trump meant when he said he was going to MAGA

No matter what happens, Trump just dropped the hammer on China and this is the inflection point of the second cold war and so far America seems to have the clear advantage / leverage.

Tidalwave is wrong about one thing, he keeps talking about in terms of what makes economic sense, that 5nm is not economically viable without Chinese market... but politics trumps economics.. especially when America is using this as weapon to contain and erase China and US still has the luxury of the petrodollar hegemony and USD as global reserve currency affording it to print its way out of this issue and making the rest of the world pay for the decoupling.

Fusion is still 40 years away from real application, oil is running out, climate change is real, we have past peak resource globally and population overshoot is a real thing...

The only way Americans can sustain their non-negotiable way of life is to start harvesting China in a sort of Plaza Accord 2.0; but since "trade talks" broke down last year and Xi/CCP made it clear that China wasn't going to let itself be colonized/harvested by the West then the US had no choice but one choice left, to completely crater China GDP by cutting it off from computer chips....

In the long run if US can regain tech preeminence and full spectrum dominance it can become a leader in AI, and if it wins AI and 5G/6G and gets in front, (no matter what tactics it uses) then it won't even need China anymore for manufacturing at all!

Very few people can see what I see, the big picture, we live in a post-peak resource world, and so its not only zero sum, its ever shrinking slices of the pie! Red queen race! US has to run faster and faster just to stay in place, it was storing China up like a piggybank counting on harvesting China by now but the Chinese did not play ball and so the only way is for US to start manufacturing itself locally using AI and automation whilst crashing Chinese GDP now that China is useless to America and just another 1.4 billion extra mouths to consume ever dwindling global resources!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Just drop another pandemic then? Kidding.

I definitely agree that politics trumps money in this case. Previously, Chinas strategy was to use the promise of its market size in order to keep the West in line. Since that has clearly broken down, we can definitely expect some sort of blanket ban in the future. This is why its paramount to prevent a coalition of Western powers from agreeing to a tech embargo.

Interestingly enough, the Brookings article pointed out that China doesn't nearly subsidize its SMEs enough, and may be spending that inefficiently. The real question here is what caused the governance failure that led to this outcome? Tidalwave seems to be on the money here.

***************************

The Brookings article cites this guy as a source. Can anyone who is fluent in Mandarin vouch for his expertise?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top